Sept. 30, 2025

Ottis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas w/ Conspiring to Argue

Ottis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas w/ Conspiring to Argue
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In this special bonus episode, I joined Ted and JJ on their show, Conspiring to Argue to discuss two of the most deplorable people on the planet: Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole. This is part 2 of their coverage of the Adam Walsh case, so head on over to their show to hear all the details of part one. 


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Check out Conspiring to Argue
Best friends debate and laugh about aliens, murder, government cover-ups and more.

If you enjoyed the episode, consider leaving a review or rating! It helps more than you know! 
If you have a case suggestion, or want attention brought to a loved one's case, email me at bookofthedeadpod@gmail.com with Case Suggestion in the subject line.

Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant.

WEBVTT

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Dark Cast Network.

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Welcome to the Dark Side of Podcasts.

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Okay, it says, it literally says, recording started. Okay, all right, wow,

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so okay, here's where it starts. All right, welcome back.

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We just I mean it was probably about fifteen minutes,

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maybe twenty Yeah, really great minutes that we're not going

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to be able to redo correctly. But welcome back. Welcome

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back to you j J. Yes, fuck off, Welcome back

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to a courtey our guest whom we've put through recording nightmare.

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At least it was only like twenty minutes. At least

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we didn't have to come back and redo it the

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whole thing. Yeah, okay, okay, and cue the music. Sure exact,

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it's can spit ass you. I did. I'm JJ, and

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this is conspiring to argue. And one thing that I've

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been doing recently is I'm on TikTok now, which is dangerous,

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and I've been watching sovereign citizens get pulled out of

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cars because they refuse to give their license. That's super depressing. No,

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it's it's kind of my new favorite thing.

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It has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

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It's fine. So if you are new to our show,

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conspirer Argues a show where we like to talk about

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and argue about conspiracies. Typically Ted or I will take

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a conspiracy, will dissect a little bit, and then we'll

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take opposing views and try to argue both of us.

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But typically one of us will take one side, one

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of us will take the other. That's what opposing views are.

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So this episode we intended to be a bonus episode,

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diving more into that of Henry Lee Lucas and the

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relationship with between Audust Tool after having done Adam Walsh,

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because Audust Tool was the person who had to the

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crime and well, but Audust Tool is widely considered the

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person that had done it. There's a big conspiracy if

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Audust Tool is actually the murder of Adam Walsh. But

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I think it's very We did not solve it. We

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have a whole We have two more episodes, this and

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one more episode. So we wanted to dive more into

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the relationship of Henry Lee Lucas and that of Audust Tool,

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maybe to break down the round it back to Adam

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Walsh to see if maybe there is more there. Yeah,

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that's but because by nature we are not a true

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crime podcast, we've asked Courtney from the Book of the

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Dead to come help us digest and kind of a

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grossly dissect these two individuals. And they're maybe crime spree.

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So so Courtney, welcome, thank you. That's for a second time.

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Welcome back. I think it's fun. Audio problems are fun.

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But Courtney, you have this this wonderful podcast on dark

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Cast network called the Book of the Dead pod, and

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was a hole when you could, you know, before we

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get into the murder, you could tell us about your

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podcast and and what what is the Book of the

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Dead about? How is it different than other podcasts? Just

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give me, give me your elevator pitch for the Book

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of the Dead.

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Yeah, so the Book of the Dead, it's as you

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might guess, I gather, it is about the dead.

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Are the books involved? Is there a book?

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And this last time we'll interrupt them, I guess if

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you want to get technical, there is a literal Book

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of the Dead. But you know, with my podcast, notebooks, okay,

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I would like to incorporate that in some way maybe

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one day, but you know, no books. So it's very

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victim focused. I try very hard to focus primarily on

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the victims when I can, if I can't. Then I

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spend a majority of the episode going, I'm really sorry

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that I don't have more information about the victim. It's

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not about the killer, and I cover, as I said,

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like kind of lesser known cases. I will cover the

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more well known every once in a while from you know,

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feeling spicy, and.

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I get that.

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So we also feel spicy, well, but we get sorry.

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We get that because we like obviously they're still interesting,

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you know, the big things, and we find ourselves doing,

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you know, when they're Whenever there's a true crame case

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that's conspiratorial in nature, yeah, we will do them. It's

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not necessarily our main area of interest, but like you know,

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in general, that's that's it's a societal calling, like that's

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what people like to consume, and so it makes sense,

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Like I totally I would be more interested it looking

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at you know, your library of episodes accordea, I would.

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I would try to find things that I've never heard of.

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But I know that a lot of people maybe don't

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do that. They want they want to, you know, hear

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more about the cases they know about, and so I'm

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sure some of it is like you know, you know

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what people are going to want to listen to. And

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and also obviously you're not gonna do anything you just

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like hate doing like that would be ridiculous. But but

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I hope that resonates a little wit because we do

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the same thing. We're like, yeah, yeah, all right, let's

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do like a you know, multiport.

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Series on like.

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Or whatever. No, I mean, this was kind of weird,

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but like, but yeah, I just mean to say, like,

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I get what you're maybe getting at.

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Yeah, So, like, you know, every once in a while,

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there's I will come across a more well known case.

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You know, I did uh Andrew Cannannan, the killer of

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Gianni Versace. The reason I did that one was because

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you know, yes, a lot of people know about his murder.

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I think most of the world knows about his murder.

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It was a really a lot of people don't realize

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that his killer killed four other people before got tosache,

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which was a lot of my draw for covering it.

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I'm like, well, people are even be interested in this

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because they're in another case, but they'll maybe be really

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interested in it because they don't know about all these

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other victims. Like one of them, you know, this older man,

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he you know, took care of a graveyard in New

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Jersey and loved to go to craft fairs and read

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his Bible. No one knows about him.

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I know about him, right, And I think that's interesting

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too that you cover the lesser known crimes. But but

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you do provide a wealth of information with them. It's

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it's and I've had some other true crime podcasts I've

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listened to where they talk about a lesser no crime

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and there's not as much details or maybe they're just

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not as easy to find, and so they gloss over

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some of the you know, more telling things. And I

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think you, your podcast The Book of the Dead, does

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a very good job of being very getting very detailed

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when they're very when those those are hard to find.

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Do you find your facts are hard to find? Sometimes?

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Do you have to do quite a bit of digging

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in order to you know, because you can't just find

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the one source and move on from there. I mean,

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what is that a challenge with these lesser known crimes. Oh?

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Yeah, sometimes it's really really difficult, which is why sometimes

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you will get kind of an info up, an info

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down the line, things that are definitely related but may

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not be related see the actual crime itself. When I

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did the Bag murders and Adisin Varral. There's not a

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lot of information on that. So you got a deep

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dive on the Exorcist because the killer would you know,

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appear in that movie. You got a big deep dive.

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I try and make it interesting because I like to learn,

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but I also wanted to be relevant to what I'm

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talking about. So if I can't find the information, you're

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gonna get as much information as I can give you

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about something else. And then I second guessed it, like

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do people need like a solid fifteen minutes of me

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talking about Satanism? Probably not right, but I'm going to

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do it because it's relevant and it's.

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I hear that, Like I totally understand the you know,

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the the internal question of.

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Like do the listeners need this digression? I ask it.

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I've never once stopped what I'm doing on it. Yeah,

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I've never once like second guessed it. I just go

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with the digression, but but maybe I should.

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So, So, what is the first thing that drew you

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to to doing true crime podcasting in this in this genre?

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And is there a particular case or moment and that

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either inspired you star podcast or maybe it was like this,

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it was a really tough, Like we all get to

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that point.

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The emotional hook maybe like well, got you back, got

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you there?

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Yeah, or got you through? Like, man, this is a

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but this is important. I need to do this. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, no.

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I grew up with true crime. My dad was super

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super into true crime. Grew up watching Dateline. Had no

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business watching Dateline at like six years old, and very trying.

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The same and and you know, you get traumatized not

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only by like obviously the events with Dateline, but also

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like listening to a man way too excited about crimes,

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like like I love Keith Morrison, but like, yikes, anyway,

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yeah I did, sorry aggression, Go ahead?

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Yeah? What what got you? What made you a glutton

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for punishment that you wanted to start this true crime? That? What?

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Who made you? Made you that way?

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So that made me that way? I hurt insomnia. I

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have pretty bad insomnia. Okay, So to deal with that,

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I do one of two things, one of three things.

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I watch a lot of horror movies in the middle

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of the night.

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That will help you go to bed, That helps anyone.

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To Anything that I did was helpful.

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I listen. You know what I do to listen to

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go to bed. I put on the YouTube. I put

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on a Cabin in rainfall. That's how I go to sleep. Oh,

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you tell me about your how you sorry to interrupt that.

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I'm wondering how much this I know you're not SA

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is just self inflict you. But but here here's the thing.

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Sorry, I I I will apologize when I interrupt, JJ won't.

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But when you watch a Cabin in the rain you're

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telling me your first thought when you're when you're struggling

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to sleep, isn't Oh shit, I saw a really good

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horror film about a cabin. I want to watch that again. No, okay,

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well you're weird. Then you're You're not the majority in

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this conversation. Please get take your cool.

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Sorry, you are not the target demographic. Yeah right, so

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I will you know, I will watch my horror movies

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as I do. I had a thing for like weird,

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obscure medical documentaries for a while. I can tell you

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all about medical conditions no one's ever heard of, probably

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cares about. And I watched a lot of or I

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researched a lot of true crime. I'd watched a lot

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of documentaries, but I did a lot of research on

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different cases that I was interested in because I grew

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up in a small town with that was involved in

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the pretty big case. I don't know if you know

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the iceman, Richard Koklinsky.

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Yes, he lives ablute.

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Really who my stepdad used to play cards at his house.

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Oh, we need to like bury the lead for your connection. No,

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that's that's wild, like like we kind.

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Of have's gonna make a journey joke. But you were

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just a small small No.

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We have we have like a tiny claim to fame,

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like yeah, we well kind of like we live like that.

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We don't know, not like that, but like we live.

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We live very close to and both of us probably

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somewhat regularly drive past the lake that the body t

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fron but Lyric and Elizabeth, the two girls that were

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abducted and murdered, there's a documentary about it. But you know, yeah,

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they're from Evanstale. They're from ten minutes away from where

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we are, and the lake their friends ten minutes away.

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We drive past it, so like, but that's nowhere near

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the scale of that. Wow. Okay, yeah, I still think

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that's what got you in a true crime.

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So it was always it sparked, it helped spark the interest, sure,

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and then I started researching some really crazy cases. I

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definitely fueled the insomnia issue with terrible nightmares about these cases,

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and I carried them with me when I got kind

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of the idea to start a true crime podcast because

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of the issues I had with some true crime podcasts

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and being very like performative and self starving instead of

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being what they should be about, which is the victims, right,

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one of which was Junco Feruda's case, the case in

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Japan in the nineties, and it's brutal. It's easily one

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of the most twisted cases I've ever seen in my

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entire life. Actually, a lot of the really traumatizing ones

233
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have happened in Japan. I've covered a couple of them, but.

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The suicide forest in did you just you heard Japan?

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And you like cognitively related because there is a lot

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of like, there's a lot of kind of stuff in Japan.

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And I mean especially whenever you cover a case that,

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I mean, in any non you know, Western, non US

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case like there, you do have to spend some time

240
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discussing culture, you know, because things are so different. But

241
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but like but yeah, especially I mean honestly, like like

242
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the way that that I mean crime in general, but

243
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like just every facet of every facet of like Japanese

244
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culture is so so vastly different really, I mean truly

245
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it is. Obviously we're both like you know, modern nights

246
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countries and everything, but like it's very different. So like,

247
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like I'm sure that the way that the you know,

248
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the victim and that the perpetrators were treated in that

249
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case were really shocking. Whether it was because of like

250
00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.679
cultural differences, but like I think if I remember that case,

251
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like it was like it was a very it's a

252
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very strong feeling of injustice, right like with really yeah.

253
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And that's what kind of in the times where I've

254
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felt like really like I don't want to I don't

255
00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:29.200
know if I want to do this anymore. I'm in

256
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a slump, like I don't know if it's worth it anymore.

257
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I remember, like when I covered that case, I found

258
00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.639
out new information from when I had first learned about it,

259
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:41.120
And first of all, like the justice system in Japan

260
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is obviously vastly different. Hours and they all all of

261
00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:50.200
the men involved got max like thirteen years and I

262
00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.279
don't even think most of them didn't even starve that

263
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:54.799
many years. It was like maybe six or seven for

264
00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.080
almost all of them, and they went off to like

265
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live their lives and continue to be like scum of

266
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the earth.

267
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And I was so shocking, right, Yeah, of course it was.

268
00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:10.039
So angry like her. The parents of like the main

269
00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:15.440
guy literally desecrated this girl's grave to the point where

270
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her parents had to have her body moved to Texas.

271
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She's not her parents can visit her grave because they

272
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had to move her to Texas. It's insane exactly, And

273
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I was so angry right.

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This. This was a question I asked Ashley from f

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that Pod, Another dark Cast, Another dark Cast. Go go

276
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.919
check out our dark cast lineup? Are our dark Cast amigos.

277
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If you will, sure if you? If you, but also

278
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:51.679
listen finish listen. Yeah, yeah, don't not this second. But

279
00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.240
if you weren't doing a true crime podcast? What other

280
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genre would you do if you were still forced to

281
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do a podcast for some reasons? Yeah, would you? Would

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you do something other than true crime? Or or or

283
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could you not see yourself doing anything else other than uh,

284
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that podcast?

285
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I would probably be talking about horror movies. Okay, I

286
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love horror movies and very like opinionated about horror movies.

287
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I'm just sorry, you know, my one of my jobs

288
00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:26.480
here digression, but I have to asked, like, I mean,

289
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do you have like I know this is this is

290
00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:31.480
such an insane question, but like even just like one genre,

291
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but like, do you have a favorite horror movie?

292
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I do it.

293
00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.200
Okay, it's a long list, but i'll give you. I'll

294
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give you top three.

295
00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:43.320
Okay, okay, top three.

296
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The Ring specifically the Japanese version, but naturally it's got

297
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a place in my heart.

298
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Of course.

299
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I love The Strangers same. Yeah, and the sawt franchise

300
00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:05.679
has a just a huge like in my heart. I

301
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.720
grew up with those movies. And what's your favorite Saw movie?

302
00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.159
He can't beat the first The Person's Great Top off

303
00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:12.759
the Floor.

304
00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:14.960
Yeah, no, I think the first one is just like

305
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:16.960
the best. I think the second one is the most

306
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:20.279
like uncomfortable, like that one achieves its goal so well

307
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:21.159
it does.

308
00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:23.639
Yeah, that's like the Fucked Me Up.

309
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.440
Yeah, it's Beginner's Guide to Body Horror exactly. I those

310
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are great choices, you know what might Sorry, I like

311
00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.120
to say this to a horror movie fans because I

312
00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:34.639
get I get kind of a combined reaction every time

313
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where it's like, yeah, I get it, but really, you're

314
00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.080
gonna put that in a category favorite like and I

315
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:43.080
get it, but truly truly my favorite horror movie. And

316
00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.840
this is such a silly thing to say, but it's

317
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.279
that fucking body horror comedy Tusk, just in lock. Like

318
00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:52.879
Kevin Smith film Tusk. I like, Okay, I love, I

319
00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.720
love all the classes. I love every horror movie I've

320
00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.879
ever seen, but like Tusk is hilarious and it makes

321
00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:00.960
me want to vomit every time I see it. And

322
00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:04.440
that's a good horror movie that does that. You've seen

323
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.640
that right, West Down Chudge, I don't I know, Like

324
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.240
I said, always a mixed reaction, but I love that

325
00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:12.720
movie so damn much.

326
00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:16.039
Al Right, speaking of other horror, real life horror movies.

327
00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:17.599
And see what I'm doing is I'm bringing it back.

328
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:19.200
I see what you're doing. See what I'm doing. Yep,

329
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.359
I told you. This is what we're gonna do, is

330
00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.160
that before Audust, we're gonna start with all We're gonna

331
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:25.640
start with Audust Tool and then we're going to Mark

332
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.720
to hard cut. It's sometimes there's not a way to

333
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.759
do it, all right, So we're gonna talk specifically about

334
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.200
Bodist Tool and his childhood Henry Lee Lucas and them

335
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:37.440
looking at the crime spreed that they did together, so

336
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.839
before Audust Tool became, you know, half of America's most

337
00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:42.039
functioning murdered.

338
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.559
Quick again, listen to our previous episode if you need

339
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:46.480
a background on who these are, because clearly we're not

340
00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:47.720
giving any sort of intro.

341
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.599
Go ahead, I'm I'm gonna touch base a little bit

342
00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.079
of Adest Tool because I think it's important to bring

343
00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:54.039
it up. Because because Henry Lee Lucas is going to

344
00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.440
dominate this, because he's just such a so much more

345
00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.960
of a dominating figure in American history. And I would

346
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.400
are you even the story that is Audust Tool, like Audust.

347
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.240
Tool the main character in Audust Tool story, and even

348
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.599
like as he would tell it as Henry yes.

349
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:12.079
Yes, oh he loved Henry Lee Lucas right in a romantic,

350
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:15.960
gross kind of way. Yeah.

351
00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:19.160
Well, and and not like obviously nothing to do with

352
00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.599
with anything about like it's it's gross because like part

353
00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:26.599
of the romance was being awful to others like that

354
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:27.559
that's what makes it gross.

355
00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.559
Yeah, no, no, no, not because he's no Listen, we

356
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:35.200
support the LGGP community. We support a community whatever letters

357
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.319
you said. But yeah, yes, LGDP, yeah you said a

358
00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.079
lot of the Q community now anyway, yeah, we love

359
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:47.920
the gazeew so, oh my god. All right, before Audust

360
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.960
Tool became half of the most dysfunctional murdered duo, he

361
00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:54.359
grew up in Jacksonville, Florida. Although I don't know if

362
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.599
I necessarily call it growing up, that's kind of a

363
00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.160
generous because the childhood of Audust Tool Henry Lee Lucas

364
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.440
can best be described as the blueprint on how to

365
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.039
create a psychopath or a serial killer.

366
00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:10.359
Yeah yeah, and we also yeah, thanks, Yeah, I'm really

367
00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:11.759
good at these gems when I just say yeah, but no,

368
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:13.759
we spend a lot of time our in our previous

369
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:16.880
episode talking about well it's mostly just like me shouting

370
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:19.880
at a microphone. But and you agreed, we weren't arguing

371
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.799
about it, but like, but yeah, you know, there's obviously

372
00:19:22.839 --> 00:19:24.839
like the you know, the triad, there's there's a lot

373
00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:26.799
of things that then we'll talk to tip things about that.

374
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.680
But I just want to say I did I said

375
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:31.200
it a lot, but like, there are a lot of

376
00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:33.279
people who go through traumatic events and who have you know,

377
00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.160
I've had writing and all this stuff and and they

378
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.200
turn out to be like you know, CPAs and they're

379
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.960
totally fine. So like, yes, there are predictive things, but

380
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.359
like you don't have to be a fucking monster anyway.

381
00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:48.319
Sure sure. Audest Ellwood Tool was born in Jacksonville, Florida,

382
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.799
in nineteen forty seven. His father was an alcoholic and

383
00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.440
a band in the family, while his mother was described

384
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.039
as an abusive and Christian extremist. She would often be

385
00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.000
little oddest and, according to Tool, force him to wear

386
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:04.400
girls clothing and call him Susan. The treatment began after

387
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:10.039
he revealed his homosexuality to his family. Toole claimed that

388
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:13.000
he was abused at home it was widespread and severe,

389
00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:15.559
stating that he was sexually abused by his father, his

390
00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.400
older sister, and other relatives and acquaintances, including the next

391
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.279
door neighbor. He also claims to have been physically beaten

392
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.279
by his brothers, and even from a young age, Tool

393
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:31.079
exhibited disturbing behaviors. He had mild intellectual disability, with an

394
00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:35.319
IQ of seventy five. He suffered from epilepsy, which caused

395
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:38.160
frequent grand male seizures, which is very similar to that

396
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.720
of Henry Lee Lucas and he was a frequent runaway,

397
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.079
often sleeping in abandoned houses, and that he had a

398
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:50.079
sexual fascination with fire in his youth. Yeah.

399
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.839
Yeah, Like I mean this recipe for bad and it

400
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:59.400
goes without saying that like obviously not minimizing the damage

401
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:01.200
that that does. Everything like that With with what I

402
00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:02.920
last said, it's just I guess I'm curious to get

403
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.319
your thoughts courting Like you you look into you know

404
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.279
a lot of what you would look into, would you

405
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:13.799
know it involves really fucked up perpetrators doing terrible things

406
00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.039
like and and you know often there is a history

407
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.359
of like you know, very serious abuse and things like that.

408
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:20.759
But like what are I guess I don't know what

409
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.759
are your thoughts on like because it seems I guess

410
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.200
what I'm getting at is it seems like a lot

411
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:27.079
of like what media does. And you know, it's a

412
00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:29.440
well pointed out problem, but like you know, there'll be

413
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.559
like in Netflix series and stuff like that where it

414
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.160
almost seems to like for some people what it does is.

415
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.880
It like it it.

416
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.759
Either puts the perpetrators up on a pedestal or it

417
00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:43.319
tries to almost it gives sympathy to the perpetrators, and like,

418
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.920
what what are your thoughts on that whole dialogue about?

419
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.039
Like the way that yourure crime is presented by like

420
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.400
less than responsible sources, It is a great source of

421
00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:58.359
irritation for me. So my whole thing with perpetrators, These

422
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.519
people that kill, some of that are absolutely the scum

423
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.640
of the earth. Some of them have had horrific childhoods

424
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:08.440
and terrible things have happened to them in their youth,

425
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.480
growing up even as adults. And then you have people

426
00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:16.559
that grew up very well adjusted, no issues with their family,

427
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:19.279
They went to good schools, they had good jobs, all

428
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.680
kinds of stuff. So it's sometimes you can make an

429
00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.519
argument about nature versus nurture. You know, is someone just

430
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.799
inherently evil? My whole thing is you can feel bad

431
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.200
for something that someone went through as a child. You

432
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:35.799
should because they were a child. They did not ask

433
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:37.240
for nor did they deserve it.

434
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.400
At some point, oddest tool is a victim. Yeah, that's

435
00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:40.920
fair to say.

436
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.200
He at some point as a child's he was one

437
00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.240
thousand percent of victim. And then he grew up and

438
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.799
he wasn't a victim anymore. He made conscious decisions. And

439
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:54.319
that's the thing that I think people need to understand

440
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.920
is like, at the end of the day, they're making

441
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.559
a conscious decision to you thing, even.

442
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:02.720
If we can look at like even if we can say, like, oh,

443
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:05.279
maybe we can trace it back to like what would

444
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:09.440
have you know, led led his brain to do that decision,

445
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:12.119
Like there are also people who deal with similar trauma

446
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:14.440
as a child and don't do the things that he did.

447
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:16.599
And and like you said, there are people who have

448
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:18.920
none of that trauma and do terrible thing Like like,

449
00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.079
it's not a for sure guarantee that this type of

450
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:24.759
trauma will lead to this type this type of decision making,

451
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.799
so it is a personal choice, like and that's that's

452
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.720
I think that that's to me what's so infuriating, and

453
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.920
what a lot of like documentaries and things like maybe

454
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.240
try to try to sensatialize and like point away from it, like, yeah,

455
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:39.119
we can agree that the trauma is terrible and obviously

456
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.000
no child should have to go through that, and then

457
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:42.920
a whole different conversation is what they choose to do

458
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.680
as an adult, Right, I mean, like it's just crazy

459
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:49.319
to me that that it's it's really like kind of

460
00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:51.680
like in vogue in the culture to like be like,

461
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:53.079
but did you know like what he went through, And

462
00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:54.799
it's like, yeah, I do, and it's terrible of course,

463
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:56.720
but that doesn't take away from what they're doing now.

464
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:58.960
Like Peole did drop out of high school or did

465
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.839
drop out in ninth and as a teenager, he reportedly

466
00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:05.240
worked as a prostitute and claimed his first He claims

467
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:07.680
that his first murder card at the age of fourteen,

468
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.160
when he allegedly killed a traveling salesman who he had

469
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.440
proposition for sex and ran over him with his own car. So,

470
00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.359
I mean, this is the I mean, everybody from what

471
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.039
I understand, very early in Audust Tool's life was like

472
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.119
that boy ain't right, you know, like like I mean,

473
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:23.599
I think you can definitely get into the nature of

474
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.079
nurture debate, but there were some very telling things that

475
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:29.640
were gonna have that were happening to him even outside

476
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:32.480
of how he was raised. And then his problem environment

477
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.440
didn't didn't do him any credit whatsoever.

478
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:39.319
Yeah, yeah, oh absolutely, And there are people that just

479
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:44.440
are inherently evil, was honest will probably inherently evil. Yes,

480
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:49.160
it sounds like it's right, but you know there's still

481
00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:53.839
just because something terrible happened to him. You can't use

482
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.960
that to justify his actions.

483
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:55.559
Exactly.

484
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.759
A lot of people do that with certain killers. They

485
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:05.400
they've sensationalized these killers, and it's so gross, especially and

486
00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:07.799
like as a woman in the true crime space, there

487
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.720
are women in the true crime space that are really

488
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:14.480
gross about killers. Sure, we don't need to talk about

489
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.519
how attractive you think like that, Yes.

490
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.880
Let's stop. Let's stop and say that honest Tool is

491
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.759
not that person that anyone is going to say isn't attractive.

492
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.039
There's no there's no point in like debating you know,

493
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:33.160
the like the physical appear like that. That's just a

494
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:37.559
ridiculous exercise to begin with. And also just because I

495
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:39.480
was gonna say, we don't feel badly about talking shit

496
00:25:39.559 --> 00:25:42.920
about perpetrators that like, like he definitely was not even

497
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:45.279
in that camp like like you know, not that that

498
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:47.200
there needs to even be the camp like and I'm

499
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:50.200
not even like I don't think any serial killer you

500
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:53.200
should their attractives should be talked about. But honest Tool

501
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.960
definitely wasn't that. Like, because it's fine to be mean

502
00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.359
to people who are terrible, No.

503
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.839
I I don't know, you know, it's fine.

504
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:04.160
Yeah, exactly, but but go ahead, Jesse said, no, no, no,

505
00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:06.960
I was gonna transition to Henry Lee Lucas. But before,

506
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:09.039
but before I do, is there any any final thoughts

507
00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:10.599
you guys want to I mean, aust tool officely can

508
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.839
back up, but audust Toole's childhood. I mean, I don't

509
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.440
know what your guys thoughts on nature versus nurture or

510
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.440
if it's just listen, it was always he was, he

511
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:21.359
was fu no matter what. Well, there's no reason I don't.

512
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.200
I feel like there's like no reason to, like, you know,

513
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.680
litigate that argument, like there's you know, people are gonna

514
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.440
have different opinion. But I think it sounds like we're

515
00:26:28.519 --> 00:26:31.559
kind of on We're all on the page that like, yeah,

516
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.000
obviously that's bad shit, Like obviously you know we can

517
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.240
we can have pity for that. And and also there

518
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:42.400
were active decisions made in adulthood that that whether they

519
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.000
were shaped by that or not, they didn't need to

520
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.480
be made right. I mean, am I wrong in thinking

521
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:47.880
that we all at least can get behind that?

522
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.119
I agree? Okay, Okay, Now, Henry Lee Lucas was born

523
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:56.200
in nineteen thirty six black Berg, Virginia, and had a

524
00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:01.759
similar horrifying upupbringing. His father, Anderson Lucas, was a former

525
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.920
railroad employee who lost both his legs and a train accident.

526
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.519
And by accident, I mean he got drunk, passed out

527
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.839
on the railroad tracks and a slow movie train amputated

528
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.599
both of his legs. It's bad, It's not good. Yeah,

529
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:15.440
it's just to be clear.

530
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:19.519
And you're only laughing because just to you're only chuckling

531
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:21.359
because also he wasn't a great person.

532
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:27.200
It's Henry Lee Lucas's childhood. If somebody put it in

533
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.119
a movie, you would be like, that's so ridiculous. I

534
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:34.799
can't even believe it, Like we're so outrageous. So he

535
00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:37.960
had His father was locally known as because again he's

536
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:43.440
in the Blackbird Virginia h his his nickname was no legs,

537
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.160
not not the most creative. That's his best they can

538
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:47.720
come up with.

539
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.880
I won't fall that for accuracy, Like it's accurate. I

540
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.079
can't say it was wrong, you know, but not nice,

541
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.480
but not wrong. Anderson Lucas, unable to work, resorted selling

542
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.480
pencils out of a shopping cart that he moved along

543
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.799
with the help of a broomstick. Like he's actually like

544
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.279
in a ship, like moving his way. He's down rowing.

545
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.559
Yeah, I can I can see you rubbing your eyes

546
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.519
like you don't want to laugh, but you can't help it. Yeah.

547
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:17.920
He was often described as passive been dominated by his wife,

548
00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.720
Viola Lucas. Now Lucas's father would die of hypus thermia

549
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:26.119
after he passed out drunk in the snow. Viola Lucas

550
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.319
was often described as a violent and controlling woman. She

551
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.359
was forty eight years old when Henry was born. And

552
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.000
when I say she hated Henry Lee Lucas, like, I

553
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.119
mean she legitimately was the worst of the worst kind

554
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:39.599
of mother.

555
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:40.440
Uh.

556
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:43.920
And just as a point of emphasis, she was a

557
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:48.839
fifty cent prostitute. And I did wait exchange rate, wiz.

558
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:50.240
Or isn't a mean you know, that might not have

559
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:52.839
anything to do with anything, but but it's it is accurate.

560
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.200
It is accurate, yes, and so, And I did the

561
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.680
exchange rate of in nineteen forty what fifty cents would

562
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:02.960
be for today's money, And anybody want to take a

563
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:03.960
guess how much that is?

564
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.559
I literally couldn't like if you said it was like

565
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.960
you said, it was fifty cents in nineteen forty you're

566
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.160
wondering today. If you said it was like seventy cents,

567
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:13.359
I'd be like, oh okay. And if you said it

568
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.559
was like one thousand dollars, you'd be like, sure, I don't.

569
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:17.079
Know, Courtney, what do you how much do you think

570
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.559
fifty cents went for what would be today in nineteen

571
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:21.240
forty I.

572
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.240
Was trying to remember the conversion because I've done the

573
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:24.960
conversion for this time period before.

574
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:26.920
I know I have two in other episodes, but I

575
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:27.519
can't remember.

576
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:31.880
It's like, it's not a lot. It's like I want

577
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:33.160
to say, like hundreds ten bucks.

578
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:35.960
It was eleven dollars and twenty cents. Damn it. I

579
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:37.960
was close, So yeah, you get it. Yes, yes, yes,

580
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:42.279
I remember going with a friend once to a gentleman's club.

581
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:44.839
I'm just gonna tell a personal story. And after the

582
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.559
end of the night there was a stripper who offered

583
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.960
to said. I think she said, hey, seven bucks and

584
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.880
we can go back behind the app Wow. When was it?

585
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:57.160
Doesn't matter? That was with you, your dumb ass? Really? Yes?

586
00:29:57.319 --> 00:29:58.920
Was that your bachelor already? Because again, it's the only

587
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.160
time we've ever wat No, that was with you. I

588
00:30:02.200 --> 00:30:04.799
was hoping you would remember the story when she offered

589
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.519
you seven bucks to go behind the out You're like.

590
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:11.000
Oh, good, I'm glad I said no. I mean to

591
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.200
be fair, like, I genuinely don't remember that. Which good

592
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:16.279
did we did? We and vibe had we had a

593
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:16.880
few alcoholics?

594
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:18.880
Just oh yeah we had. We got a cab there

595
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.319
at a cab back home? Oh good? Responsible, we're responsible? Yeah,

596
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:22.720
good to hear.

597
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:24.559
I mean, and I was responsible enough to say no

598
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.720
to that lovely offer, yes, I mean, and bless her heart. Yeah,

599
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.640
I don't. I don't remember this at all. And I'm

600
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.680
also totally fine with you telling every possible person that

601
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:38.079
could ever listen to this that story.

602
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:42.559
Thank you. You do the editing you said no, yeah, yeah, yeah,

603
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:45.680
that's good. I guess. Yeah. I just I remember that

604
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:47.400
because I was like, wow, that's a really good right,

605
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.519
and you're like, oh, that's too low, you know what.

606
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.720
That's kind of how I feel about a fifty cent

607
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:53.839
prostitute is like you're you're probably think of like even

608
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:55.599
eleven dollars, like pan, that's a good right for a

609
00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:57.680
prospct be like, oh, but who also has but but

610
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:00.599
also yeah that seems too low. Wait, what do you

611
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:02.920
think Okay, well you know, I don't wait wait, can

612
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:03.759
you forget? You have a guest?

613
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:05.240
What do you think is a good going wait for

614
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.799
a prostitute? Okay, anyway, sorry, Going back to.

615
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.720
Viola Lucas, she would often beat Henry and his siblings

616
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:14.880
and would force Henry to watch her with clients, hoping

617
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:18.880
to groom him into becoming of him. Henry, I'm sorry.

618
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:21.880
Viola also made Henry dress as a girl, very similar

619
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.799
to autist tool, and would continue that would continue until

620
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.519
school officials intervened with a fucking court order. So, I

621
00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:31.319
mean it was in what time period does teen? Well,

622
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:32.559
if it would have been school age, it would have

623
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.880
been nineteen forty five. Wow.

624
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.200
I feel like in order for school officials to intervene

625
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:40.319
on anything in nineteen forty five, it had to be

626
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:40.799
real bad.

627
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:43.119
Yeah, yeah, it had been because like they didn't really care.

628
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:45.160
Yeah listen, you come or you don't. I mean, it's

629
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:47.200
like there's a war going on it back then. They

630
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.480
were giving kids listen, if you go work with the farm,

631
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:51.279
will graduate you, right, I mean.

632
00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:55.839
And also like half of people who are considered Americans

633
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.039
citizens now weren't even considered people then.

634
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:00.160
So like it was a very different type. It was

635
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.359
a bad one, a worse one. And we'll say that

636
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.200
Henry was given the blueprint treatment to become a serial killer.

637
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:08.359
We mean it. When Henry was eight years old, Viola

638
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:10.839
beat him so badly with a two by four then

639
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:15.000
caused him to spend three days in a coma and

640
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:18.519
not even a joke. But Viola's himp and boyfriend was

641
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:20.880
the one who brought him to the doctor. Yeah, I

642
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:21.519
remember eating that.

643
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:23.079
Yeah, yeah, it was okay. Yeah, he was in a

644
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:26.160
com up for three days. Yes, and his mother's pimp

645
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:27.640
was like, we got to take this kid in like

646
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:28.880
it's been too long.

647
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.759
It's hurting business. Yeah, that's awful Jesus.

648
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:37.640
And again it's not great to laugh, but we're talking

649
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:39.039
about a very very terrible person.

650
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.319
Yes, yes, just to be clear, Henry was a victim,

651
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.079
but all the time, yeah, at the time, it wasn't funny. Yes.

652
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:48.640
At age ten, Henry Lee Lucas developed in an affection

653
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.119
in his left eye after he got into and I

654
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:55.319
again can't make this up, a knife fight with one

655
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:59.240
of his brothers. Viola ignored the injuries for days and

656
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.160
it actually order to heal up until Henry was in

657
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.400
school and a teacher went to throw a ruler at

658
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.720
a student that was being unruly and it hit Henry

659
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:13.160
in the bad eye and had to be taken out

660
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.000
and because it got infected.

661
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.480
You said, it's it's so absurd, like every all of this,

662
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:22.119
this story, it's so absurd that it's it's like you

663
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:25.079
couldn't pitch this as like a movie or like but

664
00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.440
like people would be like, no, this is to like

665
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:28.720
make it more realistic.

666
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.960
Yeah, this is really a serious of unfortunate events.

667
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.440
Yes, yes, yes, not even unfortunate, that's not even a

668
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.839
strong enough word. True. Uh. His eye had to be

669
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.240
replaced with a glass prosthetic eye that constantly leaked fluid

670
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.960
because Lucas failed to take care of it properly. Course

671
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.240
didn't almost happened to you, by the way, I do.

672
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.200
I have had some eye issues, but never have I

673
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:55.200
ever had to get a glass eye. No, I know

674
00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:56.880
you don't have a glass I thought you were close

675
00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.079
to that. No, No, I just I had. I had

676
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:01.039
to cut my eye. You had to like drive me

677
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:03.640
around for a week. You're almost got to press it. No,

678
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.680
I know, they just make it up. I guess. Yeah,

679
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:09.760
it's fine. You don't even remember you are times when

680
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:12.679
we go out. Yeah, I remember it very vividly. Yes. So,

681
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:15.639
Lucas would drop out of school in the sixth grade

682
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:17.440
and would want to run away from home, and he

683
00:34:17.480 --> 00:34:20.960
began drifting around Virginia, engaging in petty theft and developed

684
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:26.039
the disturbing behavior including bestiality and zoo sadism, which is

685
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.800
the torturing and killing of animals for pleasure. In case

686
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:29.519
you didn't know.

687
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:34.559
That zoo sadism is is it's a word that like

688
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.199
bye by the the you know, root makes sense, but

689
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.880
like it almost seems a little too whimsical for what

690
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:44.440
it is. Zo sadiem zoom zoo sadism. Yeah, no, say

691
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:46.920
it in French checks. I don't want to, but yeah

692
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.079
I don't. I mean, obviously it's bad. It's just like

693
00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:51.000
it's true.

694
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:51.800
It's not your hot take.

695
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.440
Yeah, but it's it's like an interesting word. I like

696
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:55.519
the word, I don't.

697
00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:01.000
Like the act. Okay, go ahead, I'm sorry. Henry claimed

698
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.760
that his first murder victim happened when he was fourteen

699
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.480
years old. According to later confessions, he strangled a seventeen

700
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:11.400
year old Laura Burnsley, who would vanished from a bus

701
00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:15.039
stop in Lunchburg, Virginia. Back in Market Lynchburg fifty one,

702
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:18.280
probably Lynchburg, Lucas said he was picking her up near

703
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.760
town and after she resisted his advances, he killed her

704
00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:25.679
and buried her body in a remote wooded area near Harrisburg.

705
00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.079
And he was quoted saying it scared me quite a

706
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:31.280
bit because the first girl I killed was when I

707
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.760
was fourteen years old. I wanted to try. I wanted

708
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:37.559
to try the sex I'd been watching, and I got

709
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:40.159
to a plane too rough, he said, the pressure of

710
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:43.239
seeing my mom hit me, and my emotions more or

711
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.519
less took over, and I couldn't quite handle it. As

712
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:49.960
with most of his confessions later, Lucas would later recant

713
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:55.519
this claim, but Burnsley's body was never discovered. So and

714
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:59.320
I guess, I mean, you guys very little evidence. But

715
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.800
in the in the amount of you know, research you've done,

716
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.400
or what you know about Henry Lee Luke, is is

717
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:08.639
it possible that this could have been his first victim?

718
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.280
And Corney, I'll ask you first, good call.

719
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:16.760
It's very possible. And if he's telling it truthfully in

720
00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:20.719
this original statement, if he had a key stay he

721
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.960
killed Laura and he stopped there, you could understands the

722
00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:28.000
argument that his trauma caused.

723
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:29.960
Her death at fourteen.

724
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:33.079
You could absolutely make that justification.

725
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.159
So I can get behind that. Yeah, it still wasn't

726
00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:40.440
right that he killed somebody. Absolutely not right, of course,

727
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:41.960
And I know that's not what you're saying, but like,

728
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.039
but I get what you're saying, and that it's like, yeah,

729
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.800
the argument could be made that that could be a discussion.

730
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:49.639
Yeah, you could absolutely argue that if he if he

731
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:56.320
had stopped there, And I think it's definitely possible. It's

732
00:36:56.440 --> 00:37:03.840
it's hard to imagine someone younger than that age committing murder,

733
00:37:04.840 --> 00:37:08.280
so and it's rare that it happened. So the likelihood

734
00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:11.800
that he had that this was his first is probably accurate.

735
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:13.920
He's probably being truthful in that sense.

736
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:17.559
I'd be curious to know what because a lot of

737
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.000
when we start getting into a lot of the discussion

738
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:24.480
about the confessions of Henry Lee Lucas, a lot of

739
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.519
the time served either a greater purpose, whether to impress

740
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.079
or he was getting a preferential treatment. I'd already incarcerated. Yes,

741
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.119
I'd be curious to know because I don't know the

742
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.199
answer to it. But how was this brought up? Was

743
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.639
it just somebody sat him and said, Henry one was

744
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:42.360
the first one you murdered? And who was the first

745
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.480
person murdered? And that's how he told the story?

746
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.960
Or was it like a lot of saying I'll tell

747
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:49.599
you about the first one and if I can get

748
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:51.920
a better you know, sell, or what like well I

749
00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:52.760
or I.

750
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:54.639
Think in a lot of like a lot of what

751
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.920
happened was you know, they they would like, hey, we

752
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.559
know this Burnsley girl disappeared when you were about fourteen

753
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.000
years old? You know anything about it? And he's, oh, yeah,

754
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.800
I murdered her. Like I'd be curious to know what

755
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:09.719
the context of his confession was in this room.

756
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:12.480
And that's what I mean, honestly, that's that's so that's

757
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:14.559
one of the things that's so infuriating. I mean, like

758
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:16.159
not one of the main ones. The main thing is

759
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:17.639
like the victims, but like one of the things that's

760
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.960
so infuriating about like serial murders and any anything like

761
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.000
this is, you know, we're obviously not dealing with people

762
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:27.440
who are motivated to be as truthful as possible, and

763
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:31.360
so like the getting information about what actually happened sometimes

764
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:34.800
is super fucking difficult and and like and and it

765
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.239
makes it hard to tell the stories of the people

766
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:38.960
whose stories need to be told. That it like and

767
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:41.039
I know, obviously I'm preaching to the choir with your courtney,

768
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.599
but like, it just sucks that the the you know,

769
00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.360
a lot of times the best information we have is

770
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:48.039
from you know, the potential killer.

771
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:51.159
Like and it's like it's awful.

772
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:53.480
Oh absolutely, And a lot of times it's self serving

773
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:55.960
for them, exactly because they're getting something out of it.

774
00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:01.360
Sometimes it is self defying in a way for them,

775
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:06.199
because they're getting enjoyment out of either withholding the compassion,

776
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:11.480
giving the compassion, or making up a confession. One possible

777
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.519
he lied about it if he was bored enough to do.

778
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:17.960
So, exactly, let alone if you got preferential treatment in

779
00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:19.360
some way exactly.

780
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:23.000
Now, the first mart that we are aware of is

781
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:25.239
where we're going to get get to next. And so

782
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.079
in the early nineteen sixties, Lucas was living with his

783
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:33.599
many of many of many half sisters when Viola, seventy

784
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.320
four at the time, came to visit. During her stay,

785
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:40.559
tensions escalated quickly, and on January eleventh, after drinking heavily.

786
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:43.679
Lucas and his mother got into a heated argument, reportedly

787
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:47.960
over a woman that Lucas wanted to marry but Viola disapproved.

788
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:51.480
Up personally, if any woman is going to marry Henry

789
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:54.119
Lee Lucas, I feel like as a mother, you should

790
00:39:54.119 --> 00:39:57.679
be like, well done. You know, the bar is very low.

791
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:01.039
I hear you're saying, yeah, it well, and also like

792
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:05.280
it's it's so tragic and it's so it's it's upsetting

793
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.760
to think about, like, you know, somebody who is who

794
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.239
is that presence in their son's life, having the audacity

795
00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:14.599
to disapprove of a decision that they're making. You know,

796
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:18.920
somebody who has victimized their child that much, giving their

797
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:22.360
opinion on something that you know, but for for all,

798
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:25.199
for sake of conversation, is just going to make you know,

799
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:27.079
Henry Lee's life better at that point.

800
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:29.639
No, she was a terrible woman. Well sure, but there's

801
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.840
no but but like I wonder I remember correctly, I

802
00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:36.639
think Henry Lee Lucas did did Iola know that? At

803
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:37.079
that point?

804
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:38.480
I feel like she was just going to say that

805
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:40.800
regard yes, because she wanted to make her son's life yes.

806
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.519
No, well, and and then no, no whatever to this person, right,

807
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:49.079
Henry Lucas. You know, uh abused her children as well,

808
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:51.559
and of course yeah, and she and it happened for

809
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.000
like a couple of years before she ended up kicking

810
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:58.800
it out regardless, Henry Lucas, horrible person, yes, According to Lucas,

811
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:03.119
the argument that Ofola and Henry Lee Lucas had turned

812
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.480
physical with their sister. According to Lucas, Viola struck him first,

813
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.119
and in the heat of the moment, Lucas retaliated. He

814
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:12.079
claimed to have slapped her with a knife in his hand,

815
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.880
unintentionally cutting her neck. Lucas flooded the scene and the

816
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:21.119
body of Yola wasn't found until the next day from

817
00:41:21.199 --> 00:41:23.760
his half sister lay in a pool of her own blood.

818
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:28.119
Lucas was quickly arrested because of course he was, and

819
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.239
he was charged a second degree murder. I think everybody

820
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:32.199
had kind of said, like, listen, they were in a fight.

821
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:36.320
He probably didn't premeditate this at all. It's just something

822
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.960
that unfortunately happened. He was convicted to twenty to forty

823
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.000
years in a Michigan State penitentiary, but was only to

824
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:46.719
serve ten years before being released in nineteen seventy due

825
00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:53.760
to prison overcrowding and so. General thoughts on Henry Lee Lucas,

826
00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:56.159
you know, knowledge just the childhood. But I mean I've

827
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:57.960
kind of I feel like I've laid a foundation that

828
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.159
he's had the blueprint to be. I'm a killer. You know,

829
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:07.599
maybe do you feel him versus oddest tool, better, worse,

830
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:11.239
all fucked? I mean, just general Gordy general thoughts on

831
00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:15.000
the upbringing of Henry Lee Lucas.

832
00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:19.159
He was absolutely set up for failure. I mean, if

833
00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.960
we're gonna go the whole like the way he was raised,

834
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.039
tournaments of a killer kind of thang, absolutely set up

835
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.079
for failure. But also I mean the z sadism ends

836
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:34.960
just your shitty upbringing hasn't.

837
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:39.199
Oh my god, right, you can be opinionated in this show.

838
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:41.079
This is not your show. You do not have to

839
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.519
have filtered. That's fine. I just told it. I just

840
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:45.800
told a video. I just told a story about Ted

841
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:51.639
almost getting almost I said, no, yeah, getting compositioned. Yeah,

842
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:54.960
thank you in a in a in a gentleman's club.

843
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:58.599
So if you would like so, nothing can beat that

844
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:00.000
in terms of how you feel.

845
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.400
Yeah, they're just there're two things are like they're both

846
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.440
the stum of the earth. I mean, that's that there's

847
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:11.639
now they're both so fucked.

848
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:14.920
Yeah, because but no, I agree because again, I mean, unfortunately,

849
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.360
there there are people who go through extremely traumatic things

850
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:24.960
and don't don't end up doing anywhere near that the

851
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.280
ship that Henry Lee Lucas did, Like, it's not even

852
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.400
even if it's a blueprint, it's not a it's not fate.

853
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:33.800
No, you're one hundred percent right, and so.

854
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:36.280
Decisions have to be made. Decisions are made. Henry Luke

855
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.559
has made decisions, and that that's what we're judging. That's

856
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:42.599
what's we're not right. I mean we're like, it's it's

857
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:47.199
not that, it's not that, like you know, it's like, well,

858
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.320
it doesn't matter what happened to him, because like you know,

859
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:52.360
I'm not saying that, but it's like what happened to

860
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:54.119
him was terrible and also what he did was terrible.

861
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:57.039
Those are two separate things. Like, yeah, it may be

862
00:43:57.159 --> 00:43:59.199
maybe because of the world he was raised in, those

863
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:02.239
things were more more like made more sense to him.

864
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:04.280
And I'm not taking anything away from that, but it's

865
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.119
still a choice. People still make or don't make that

866
00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:10.280
choice based on traumatic events. People all deal with trauma

867
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.119
in various levels, various degrees, and all deal with it

868
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:15.280
in different ways, you.

869
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.039
Know, absolutely, and most people it's because they have a

870
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:20.960
moral compass that they're not going to do the most

871
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:24.960
vile things on the face of the planet. And it's

872
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:32.400
no moral compass, there's no moral code that he's got

873
00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:37.000
inside of him inherently to act the way he did

874
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:39.360
and do the things he did, regardless of how he

875
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:43.400
was raised as a child. Because as we've already established,

876
00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:45.679
there are people that go through the same things, if

877
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:52.199
not worse, and they still have that, ye moral compass.

878
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.679
They don't enough, yeah, at least enough to you know,

879
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.800
like at the very least enough and even people with

880
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.000
similar pre elections that some people do find help before

881
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.760
they do something terrible and they live in totally normal life.

882
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:07.559
I think. I think it's important, however, to note that

883
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.960
this was during the sixties and seventies, and eventually they

884
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.119
were caught in the eighties where mental health services were

885
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:15.239
not nearly as I wonder out loud too, if you

886
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:19.000
did trance, so if you had transplanted he really lucas

887
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.360
audist tool, you put them in a different timeplace, different

888
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.920
sets of families, would they have turned any different? I

889
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:27.480
think about, and I judge harshly, more harshly a person

890
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.119
like Jeffrey Dahmer where Okay, yes, Jeffrey Dahmer's parents went

891
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.920
through divorce, but he was, but it wasn't the type

892
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:36.199
of abuse that that Henry Ly Lucas or an Audust

893
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:39.079
went through. I count that, and and I'll finish this,

894
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:42.920
but I judge that little more harshly, especially for you know,

895
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.719
the way in which if Audust Tool and Henry Lucas

896
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.199
did kill even a quarter or a tenth of the

897
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:53.119
people that they did, theirs were more of a convenient

898
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.360
not a feeling for you know, a total disregard for

899
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:00.519
human life, whereas Jeffrey Dahmer, for example, knew, Hey, what

900
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.039
I'm doing is wrong, but I have these urgers I

901
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:04.559
can't help. But Jeffrey Dahmer could have stopped heady, gotten help,

902
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:08.119
honest Tool and Henry Lee Lucas just didn't have. I

903
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:12.400
would argue the mental capacity to know, I think no

904
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:15.280
right from wrong, but but to value a human life

905
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.559
in the same way that other serial killers I get

906
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:19.920
to have, And so I don't know, I judge them

907
00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:24.480
harshly they're horrible, shitty people. But is it but the

908
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:29.159
upbringing I think had an adverse effect, and I thinish

909
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:34.079
is a larger port of not just to the point

910
00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:36.960
where and when we discussed what you're saying, you're not

911
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:39.760
justifying anything, but when we discussed this on the Adam

912
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:42.280
Walsh's as much as we don't want to feel bad

913
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.400
or Henry Lee Lucas or honest tool, could victims have

914
00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:48.639
not gone through the things that they did had there

915
00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.119
been more checks and balances in place, and had these

916
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:54.599
men not have gone through the childhoods and the abuse

917
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:56.599
that they did. And that's where I think we need

918
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.280
to you know, a focus needs to be on in

919
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:03.840
terms of prevention and to understand them as victims to

920
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:06.880
prevent more victims from later. Well, of course, like of course.

921
00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:10.800
That's all good, Like that's that's ideally and I think

922
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:12.920
I think that obviously.

923
00:47:12.519 --> 00:47:15.920
Yes, yes, like if the.

924
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.280
Number one thing, Yes, obviously we need we need to

925
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:19.960
try to shoot for prevention. We need to shoot for

926
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:23.320
you know, like adequate mental health services for anybody in

927
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:25.800
any community and stop things like that from happening. Of course,

928
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:29.960
regardless of whether or not the upbringing that they had

929
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:32.960
how much of that led to what they did, and

930
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:35.559
how much of that was on their own volition. I

931
00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:37.280
think those two things can be true at the same time, Like, yes,

932
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:39.519
we do need more services, but I still think that

933
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:41.880
that like we said, like other people go through similar

934
00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:43.559
upbringings and they don't do what they did.

935
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:45.880
So I mean, I don't know. I'm We're just rambling

936
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:47.960
and I think, yeah, Quarney final thought before I move

937
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.960
on to uh addest tool at Henry Lee Lucas met

938
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:51.440
and each other.

939
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:53.719
I think the biggest issue with the two of them

940
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.199
is that their perception of the value of human life

941
00:47:56.280 --> 00:48:02.039
was radically skewed. Yes, and that's whether or not that

942
00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:05.679
could have been fixed through intervention is Alfred debate, because

943
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:07.440
we're looking at it from the lens of like twenty

944
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:11.440
twenty five. So I don't know if you were to

945
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:16.159
transplant them here, if it would make a difference in

946
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:23.599
how they perceived human life to be worth on their minds.

947
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:28.400
Yeah, Now, Henry Lee Lucas an outist to meet each

948
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.400
other in I think it's nineteen seventy five, nineteen seventy six,

949
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.800
and it was like two pieces of a nightmare puzzle. Finally,

950
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:41.320
snapping together. Both men had trouble pass violent tendencies and

951
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:44.920
shared a love for drifting across America. They I know,

952
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.760
Henry Lee Lucas has been, you know, the greatest drifter

953
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:53.360
America has ever created in the worst possible way. Yeah, right, together,

954
00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:56.440
they formed one of the most bizarre and terrifying partnerships.

955
00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.400
Bad Bob Dylan. Yes, he's like bad Bob. Yeah, Bob

956
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:00.920
Dylan was you know.

957
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:03.480
Up he hif did and made folk music and maybe

958
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:05.119
was a bad person because he's from that time where

959
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:08.039
all white men were crying bad people. But but Henry

960
00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:11.119
Lee Lucas, he like every good thing Bob Dylan did.

961
00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:12.800
Henry Lucas did a bad thing instead.

962
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.000
Yeah, he's like the anti Bob Dylan. I don't think

963
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:19.920
he could sing either. It's neither can Bob Dylan. Fair. Yes,

964
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:23.199
maybe it sounds just like Bob Dylan. Uh. Their meeting

965
00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:27.119
reportedly happened at a soup kitchen in Florida. Lucas was

966
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:29.960
fresh out of prison, Tool was already kind of up

967
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.960
to his neck deep in his own chaos, and they

968
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:35.920
found this kind of kindred spirit in Lucas, I believe

969
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.559
at the time, and we talked about this, but audest

970
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:42.639
Tool was looking to pick up men for via prostitution

971
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:46.159
at this soup kitchen when he met. We spent Henry

972
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:47.199
Lee Luk too.

973
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:50.960
Long of a time talking about how how well a

974
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.719
soup kitchen in the seventies worked as a gay meet.

975
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:55.440
Up, like as I meet up in general.

976
00:49:55.639 --> 00:49:59.800
Yeah, we we, we really hammered that that conversation with the

977
00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:01.719
great But I am curious, like, Courtney, do you give

978
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:05.199
any like and when it comes to nineteen seventies gay meetups,

979
00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:06.960
what do you think about a Florida soup kitchen?

980
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:09.880
This is why we brought you on for your expert

981
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:15.480
It takes ethics next. Yeah, as someone who's used tender,

982
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:18.760
I can tell you there are horrible ways to meet people, right,

983
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:20.880
Like there just are right.

984
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:24.440
Yeah, there's some horrific ways to meet people. You know

985
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:30.719
what I think if you're going to meet someone anywhere,

986
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:33.920
a soup kitchen really isn't that bad of a place

987
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.360
to do it.

988
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.719
And at least you know, you're like, it's a shared experience,

989
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:39.079
shared lifestyle, like like, exactly, you.

990
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.920
Can relate there. There's already a relatability there.

991
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:42.679
Exactly.

992
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:45.639
It's like Christian mingle kind of but not really. I

993
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:48.840
don't know really the point of making kitchen soup kitchen mingle. Yeah,

994
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:52.679
it's kind of like, at least again, shared identity, shared identity. Yes, yes,

995
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:55.440
it's shared socio economic status, shared religion. It's kind of

996
00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:55.920
the same thing.

997
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.679
And listen, if you are part of the LGBTQ community,

998
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:06.920
you got four of them. That's good lgtbtqe ay, right, Uh,

999
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.159
if you're a part of that community, you could do

1000
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.079
a lot better than autist tool.

1001
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:13.360
Right of course, yeah, you could. You could do just

1002
00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:16.039
in general, Yeah, he is real. You can do better

1003
00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:18.599
than either of those men. They're bad people. That's they're

1004
00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:19.159
bad people.

1005
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.199
And the two men did hit it off immediately, bonding

1006
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:25.599
over stories of abuse, violence, and their mutual disdain for society.

1007
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:29.840
And what would follow is this cross country crime spree

1008
00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:34.360
of alleged murders, hitchhiking, and general mayhem. The two claim

1009
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:38.840
to have killed literally hundreds of people through the confessions

1010
00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.360
that were later retracted or disproven. Still and kind of uh,

1011
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:45.320
you know, giving a glimpse to the future is that

1012
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:48.000
law enforcement did take them seriously on a lot of

1013
00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:51.079
these uh, these confessions and link them to dozens of

1014
00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:54.400
unsolved crimes. But we'll be talking about that more later.

1015
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:57.280
But here's where things get even stranger in terms of

1016
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:59.840
the Audist Tool and Henry Lee Lucas, is that they

1017
00:51:59.880 --> 00:52:04.639
just didn't travel together. Audust Toole brought his niece and nephew,

1018
00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:08.320
who are under the care of audust Toole's mother with him,

1019
00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.280
Becky and Frank Powell. Becky in particular becomes a central

1020
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:15.800
figure in Lucas's life. She was reportedly thirteen at the

1021
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:19.639
time when they started traveling, and Lucas claims to have

1022
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:23.400
fallen in love with her. The group of crisscross costs

1023
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:26.599
the country, stating in cheap motels, picking up odd jobs,

1024
00:52:26.840 --> 00:52:31.440
and according to their own accounts, committing horrifying crimes along

1025
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:38.280
the way. I don't know chi. By their own admissions,

1026
00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.440
they had committed virtually every type of homicide imaginal. I

1027
00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:44.880
think Henry Lee Lucas said, we did everything but the

1028
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:51.639
poison ins. I mean it from pretty good evasions, thank you, strangulations, abductions,

1029
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:56.119
dry by shootings, intentional hit and runs. And as we

1030
00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:59.039
had mentioned early, Audust Tool and Henry Lee Lucas, they

1031
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:02.400
are liars, and so it's virtually impossible to know exactly

1032
00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:05.719
how many tools are, how many victims Tool and Lucas

1033
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:09.719
committed together with Becky and Frank, sometimes by their side,

1034
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.360
I mean sometimes they said they'd go into a convenience store,

1035
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:16.039
they'd shoot a guy, they'd shoot somebody in the head,

1036
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:21.079
and then go on and steal whatever gas or snacks

1037
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:23.199
or whatever they needed and then move on to the

1038
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:26.800
next one. And this would at this time point in time,

1039
00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:30.000
would have been very difficult to solve these kind of crimes,

1040
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:36.119
like these very random type of murders Schrift. I think

1041
00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:38.920
some I mean I kind of I dove into a

1042
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.199
little bit of it. Audust two would eventually be convicted

1043
00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:44.159
of six of the murders. I think Henry Lee Lucas

1044
00:53:44.280 --> 00:53:46.559
was maybe four or five of ones that they were

1045
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:49.400
very very very confident that he did. The rest are

1046
00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:54.639
just completely up up for debate. There's a couple case

1047
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.639
that stand out. In nineteen seventy seven, they allegedly killed

1048
00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.719
a man in Louisiana after offering him a rye Lucas

1049
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:03.239
that they stabbed him and dumped his body in a swamp,

1050
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:06.039
But although nobody was recovered, it did match up to

1051
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:10.039
an unsolved crime in that area. In nineteen seventy nine,

1052
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:11.880
Lucas and Tool claimed to have murdered a woman in

1053
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:15.559
Texas after picking her up at a truck stop, which

1054
00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:19.039
could very well be likely. Lucas described the victim in

1055
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:21.960
detailing and led police to a remote area where they

1056
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:23.719
said they buried her. And even though there was no

1057
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:29.159
body found, there was a very specific part of the

1058
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:34.639
confession that raised eyebrows. It seemed very detail, probably details

1059
00:54:35.079 --> 00:54:37.400
that would be very very hard to make up on

1060
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:39.719
the spot in those kind of situations. And so I guess,

1061
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:43.760
you know, knowing what you guys have known about Henry

1062
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:50.360
Lucas audist Tool, is there a victim range number that

1063
00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:55.079
you think sounds appropriate? I mean, it's it's more than zero, right,

1064
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:58.159
but how high do you think? A million? It's less

1065
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:00.360
than a million? Yeah, one hundred percent less. We think

1066
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:01.119
less than a million.

1067
00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:03.079
Yeah, if you let Henry just like you talk in

1068
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:06.280
terms of like time, like the amount of time five years,

1069
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:08.280
so about a five year crime, So it's less than

1070
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:11.039
a million, yeah, Drifting off and on, I mean, is

1071
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:11.599
there a time?

1072
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:14.679
Is there an amount of murder? Is the guess? Yeah?

1073
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:16.519
I mean, what do you guys Accordy, what do you.

1074
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:24.559
Think realistically, I don't. There's no way they killed as

1075
00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:27.320
many people as they said they did. I think the

1076
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:30.159
dozen that they are suspected of is a number that

1077
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:35.440
makes sense. It could have been more, but I don't

1078
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:41.320
it's it could have been more. I don't see it.

1079
00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:46.800
I mean, realistically, you have a single killers killing like

1080
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:50.800
twelve fifteen, yeah, anymore, it could be more.

1081
00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:53.599
But no, agreed, And I agree with what you said.

1082
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.320
And I think it's hard to because like it's so

1083
00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:57.960
it's like five years, but like but it's five years

1084
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:02.079
without them getting caught there they're drifting, they don't know

1085
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.320
if there's a sheriff around the court, like like they're

1086
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:08.079
randomly killing with no planning. I mean, essentially, it's a

1087
00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:11.440
long spree kill and like they and I think that's.

1088
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:12.679
A great way to put it. It is a it

1089
00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:15.840
is not necessarily serial killing because and that's the thing

1090
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.119
too about Henry L. Lucas was very much a product

1091
00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:21.679
killer when he when he did kill women, and we

1092
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.199
think the women that he did kill and he did

1093
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:29.360
uh some some masochist you know, you know, desecrating George's

1094
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:32.800
those kind of things. It was very much the means

1095
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:35.239
to an end, which were a body that he could

1096
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:37.920
just do whatever he wanted to do to do. Addest tool,

1097
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:39.800
on the other hand, was more of a killer of

1098
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.480
you know, a convenience. I mean they both were murdering convenience.

1099
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:45.239
I think you said it well, had.

1100
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:48.119
Less of a tool, had less of an end goal

1101
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:50.679
in mind, he was doing things that Lucas was doing

1102
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:53.599
with Lucas for Lucas, like he was doing because he

1103
00:56:53.639 --> 00:56:53.960
was there.

1104
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:58.039
Yes, yeah, and just in a total abandonment of you know,

1105
00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:01.199
the value of human.

1106
00:57:01.239 --> 00:57:04.199
Moral Yeah, yeah, exactly, so, so what I was getting at, Like,

1107
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:07.119
I think I think that it, Yeah, I mean a

1108
00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:08.679
dozen or so I think makes sense in a five

1109
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:10.360
year period, because I think if it was much more

1110
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:13.159
than that, I just think the odds are even in

1111
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:17.599
that time period that that some that it would have

1112
00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:19.320
ended earlier. I think somebody would have seen them. I

1113
00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:21.480
think somebody would have called the police, a shriff, I

1114
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:22.000
think a s sheriff.

1115
00:57:22.159 --> 00:57:23.159
I think they would have been reported.

1116
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.960
I think, like I even in that time, I think

1117
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:29.840
I can't think it's that many, just because of how

1118
00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:31.840
random it was, how unplanned it was.

1119
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.280
Right realistically, like, none of them the murders were perfect crimes.

1120
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:37.239
It was you.

1121
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:42.679
Are exactly that they got away with it, so that

1122
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:43.559
I can't think.

1123
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.719
It's that many. Well, but that's that's the part two

1124
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.960
is that is that killing random people are the hardest,

1125
00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:54.400
you know, murders to solve, especially when you consider in

1126
00:57:54.440 --> 00:57:57.840
this in the seventies where we're talking about almost absolutely

1127
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:03.239
zero forensics at the time and police departments not contacting

1128
00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:05.559
one another. I mean, well, you could create you could

1129
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:07.599
do a murder and then be the next town over

1130
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:11.039
do another murder. And that was to police. You know,

1131
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:14.519
precincts are going to talk to one another, rightsoever, right,

1132
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:16.880
And so I think it became very difficult to do this.

1133
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:20.519
And keep in mind too that especially during the late

1134
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:23.559
sevent mid seventies to early eighties, they were talking about

1135
00:58:23.599 --> 00:58:26.920
one hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of unsolved crimes like

1136
00:58:27.079 --> 00:58:30.800
it would be very difficult to pick up on any

1137
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:34.800
sort of pattern on this. And realistically, if you believe

1138
00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:37.320
their story, there wasn't much of a pattern.

1139
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:39.960
To because yeah, like again it was a long term

1140
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:43.760
spree killing thing like essentially, and and yeah, no, I

1141
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:47.000
just think I mean, yeah, granted, yes, it would be hard.

1142
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:52.280
I just think that like, just by circumstance they it

1143
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:55.719
couldn't have been you know. More like I think I

1144
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:58.760
think a way high estimate would be like forty and

1145
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:00.880
let's say it was that. I think that's the absolute

1146
00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:04.039
maximum that they could do over a five year period

1147
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:07.840
without somebody without getting caught. Yeah, sure, Like I just

1148
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:09.800
don't and I think that's way overshooting it.

1149
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:10.199
Now.

1150
00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:12.800
In their early eighties, Tools and Lucas did stop traveling

1151
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.440
together there for sometime. Lucas was caught traveling with the

1152
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:19.880
kids well autist at over consumption of alcohol, ended up

1153
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:22.559
at a hospital. The kids were returned back to Florida,

1154
00:59:22.920 --> 00:59:25.320
and Lucas went to jail for the stolen truck. Therefore,

1155
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:27.199
we're riding in. I do want to say too, that

1156
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:29.480
they were driving in a pickup truck. And we're not

1157
00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:31.199
talking one of those fun pickup trucks that have the

1158
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:33.400
front of the back seat. We're talking about like the

1159
00:59:33.440 --> 00:59:37.360
bench seat type of pickup truck. As they're going there

1160
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:42.360
during this time, Tool claimed the pickup truck. That's a

1161
00:59:42.360 --> 00:59:44.679
fun type of pickup truck. Sorry, we no, I mean,

1162
00:59:44.679 --> 00:59:46.599
if you have a back seat, that's kind of fun,

1163
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:48.639
I guess, But if you have just a bench seeking

1164
00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:50.159
match or people like the.

1165
00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:52.039
Bench Well okay, no, yeah, you're right. For a long

1166
00:59:52.039 --> 00:59:54.480
distance trip, that's less fun because of personal space. But

1167
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:56.280
I'm just saying I don't think any truck is fun.

1168
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.599
Go ahead, whatever, all right? Yes, tell me you tell

1169
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:01.840
me you drive a mid A Sedaan without it. I

1170
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:04.760
don't you know that? Nice? Okay, I try a hatchback.

1171
01:00:04.760 --> 01:00:09.039
It's really have a hatchback. It's sorry, that's cool. Kids.

1172
01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:11.960
The Return of Florida and during the time Toole claims

1173
01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:14.239
to have killed Adam Walsh, which you can listen to

1174
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:17.840
on Spotify of inspiring to argue, now the two do

1175
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.079
get back together in mid nineteen eighty one, is only

1176
01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:23.039
to have a falling out later. Uh, Courty, I know

1177
01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:25.079
we had we when we had brought this episode up

1178
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:27.280
to you, we had talked about the Adam Walsh case,

1179
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:28.559
and so I kind of wanted to give you a

1180
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:31.280
chance to give us your thoughts. Knowing what you know

1181
01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:34.719
about Audist Tool the Adam Walsh case. You know, do

1182
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:39.599
you think audust Tool is responsible could have been responsible

1183
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:42.639
for the murder of Adam Walsh. I was on the

1184
01:00:42.679 --> 01:00:45.599
side that I think Tool you know, embellished it to

1185
01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:48.760
try and impress Henry Lee Lucas after he was kidnapped.

1186
01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:52.000
Ted said, Listen, there's a lot of evidence, even if

1187
01:00:52.039 --> 01:00:53.480
it's circumstanced.

1188
01:00:52.840 --> 01:00:54.400
Both kind of on the fence to be honest, like

1189
01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:57.480
like we were like either either option as possible and

1190
01:00:57.519 --> 01:00:58.239
somewhat likely.

1191
01:00:58.360 --> 01:01:01.519
But yeah, yeah, it was your thoughts on the Adam

1192
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:03.800
Walsh case and Autostoole's involvement.

1193
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:12.960
Is it possible, yes, given that the types of murders

1194
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:21.400
they committed varied so widely. However, I do think a

1195
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:26.280
lot of it was this was obviously a highly policized case.

1196
01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:29.519
Everyone knew about Adam Walsh.

1197
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:30.119
Yep.

1198
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:32.400
I don't think it is out of the realm of

1199
01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:40.320
possibility that he heard about Adam Walsh and ye and

1200
01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:43.360
embellished what he knew about the case to kind of

1201
01:01:43.400 --> 01:01:47.119
insert himself into it, whether to impress Henry Lee Lucas,

1202
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:51.280
whether to just make himself sound quote unquote better than

1203
01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:55.840
he actually was. Again, is it possible, Yes, Absolutely, he

1204
01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:59.320
totally could have done it, because there is at least

1205
01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:03.880
some evidence to suggest that. Yeah, but it's also very

1206
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:09.320
very likely or possible that at all, and he's just saying.

1207
01:02:09.079 --> 01:02:12.760
He did see and and we we spent our first

1208
01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:15.679
episode like that was one of our more recent of

1209
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:18.559
a recent episode is one of our more contentious debated ones.

1210
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:22.639
But like you know, I mean, I'm I'm pretty comfortable admitting, like,

1211
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:27.199
you know, I I think that that the argument that

1212
01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:29.199
you were bringing up jj and in the last episode

1213
01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:33.360
like that, I mean, it absolutely makes sense. There's clear

1214
01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:36.719
reason that that audust Toole would have would have lied

1215
01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:37.719
about saying he did it.

1216
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:38.679
And and then.

1217
01:02:38.679 --> 01:02:43.320
There's like there's you know, very specific mile markers where

1218
01:02:43.320 --> 01:02:46.159
it's like this is this is the the you know,

1219
01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:48.119
this is how he heard about Adam.

1220
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:50.119
Walsh, this is you know he was in.

1221
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:52.519
That area, like there was a movie that came out

1222
01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:54.920
about him, like like he had a reason to lie

1223
01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:57.119
about it right at that moment, Like everything lines up

1224
01:02:57.159 --> 01:02:58.480
to like it would make sense for him to lie

1225
01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:00.440
about it. And then on the other and there's some

1226
01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:02.320
stuff about like you know, we do know that he

1227
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:06.000
did try to abduct somebody in a similar way shortly

1228
01:03:06.039 --> 01:03:08.519
before that, Like there is stuff on both sides. But

1229
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:11.679
but I'm honestly, I mean, even after all that arguing,

1230
01:03:11.719 --> 01:03:15.039
like I'm comfortable to say, like I mean at most,

1231
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:17.159
I'm fifty to fifty. If not, I'm a little swayed

1232
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:19.039
more to your side that you were arguing JJ that.

1233
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:19.920
It probably wasn't him.

1234
01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:21.519
But but like I'm glad and I'm glad you said

1235
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:23.480
that it is possible.

1236
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.719
It's not. It is honest to the kind of person

1237
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:28.519
that would try to kidnap a five six year old

1238
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:32.079
from a sears outside with nobody wrong. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1239
01:03:32.239 --> 01:03:34.119
And was he in the area at the time, yes, well,

1240
01:03:34.159 --> 01:03:36.360
we know, well he claims he was. He in Florida

1241
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:36.719
at the time.

1242
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:40.440
Yeah, we're pretty confident he was in the general area.

1243
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:42.960
He wasn't in a different country, exactly right.

1244
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:45.760
There's no evidence to suggest that he that he wasn't,

1245
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.800
you know, especially if Becky and and and Becky specifically

1246
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:53.599
because I think Becky was kind of the catalyst to

1247
01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:56.760
him feeling jealous because of their relationship with Henry Le

1248
01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.480
Lucas and and don't get this this in a in

1249
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:02.800
the wrong way when especially when Henry l. Lucas and

1250
01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:05.440
Audust Tool had their falling out, it is because of

1251
01:04:05.480 --> 01:04:09.440
Becky And it is not because UH Audust Tools upset

1252
01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:13.559
at Henry Lee Lucas. For UH falling in love with

1253
01:04:13.599 --> 01:04:18.239
his thirteen fourteen year old niece. It is because Becky's chooser,

1254
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:22.519
Henry Lee Lucas is choosing Becky over Audust Tool like

1255
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:26.119
he is. He is upset because he feels left out.

1256
01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:28.480
Yeah, it's not because of any like sense of morality,

1257
01:04:28.519 --> 01:04:30.519
for like, oh, you shouldn't be you shouldn't you know,

1258
01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:33.719
I'm your friend. It shouldn't be my niece or were humans,

1259
01:04:33.719 --> 01:04:35.119
and it shouldn't be a thirteen year old girl.

1260
01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:37.000
No, it was. It was because he was left out. Yeah, yeah,

1261
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:39.400
point yeah, yes, and and and that was the other

1262
01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:42.440
thing too, is Audust Tool was was very much in

1263
01:04:42.519 --> 01:04:45.840
love with with uh Henry Lee Lucas. I know they

1264
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:51.159
did have a that's clear I say romantic relationship, but

1265
01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:52.079
I don't know.

1266
01:04:52.159 --> 01:04:54.960
It was a fucked up relationship that, at least in

1267
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:57.960
one of their heads, was very much romantic.

1268
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:00.880
It was probably the only consensual thing that either one

1269
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.800
of them had had ever done. Yeah, I think I think,

1270
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:07.719
Uh Henry Le Lucas said something along the lines of

1271
01:05:08.559 --> 01:05:12.280
I love you like my brother to Hoddest Tool, which,

1272
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.920
knowing what you know about what they do, is grow

1273
01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:19.559
yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, it's all bad.

1274
01:05:19.679 --> 01:05:22.239
It's all bad. It's all bad. Is that the accurdy

1275
01:05:22.519 --> 01:05:26.880
final thoughts on that? What percentage do you think it

1276
01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:33.039
is that Houdest Tool is responsible for the most disappearance

1277
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.639
and death of Adam Walsh.

1278
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:38.719
I'm going to say, I'm like, forty possible he did it.

1279
01:05:38.840 --> 01:05:40.239
Sixty percent, he definitely did it.

1280
01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:41.639
I would agree with that. That's why I think that's

1281
01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:44.920
where I'm sure. I I about like, I think it's

1282
01:05:44.960 --> 01:05:48.440
like ninety Yeah, I don't think he did. I really

1283
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.920
don't think he did. I think there's just too many

1284
01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:55.440
other sure things. Okay. In January of nineteen eighty two,

1285
01:05:55.639 --> 01:05:59.199
nobody asked you for your percent That's fine. Henry L.

1286
01:05:59.320 --> 01:06:03.719
Luke Is convinces fifteen year old Becky Powell to run

1287
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:06.639
away with him permanently because he feared that the child

1288
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:10.880
welfare authorities might rightfully take Becky away from him. According

1289
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:13.920
to Lucas, this makes Tool jails, and the two officially

1290
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.440
end their partnership. Lucas and Becky end up in California together,

1291
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.599
where they're hired by a woman whose elderly mother, at

1292
01:06:20.719 --> 01:06:24.119
age eighty two year old Katie Rich, needed care. But

1293
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:28.079
within weeks, Katie disappears along with Lucas and Becky, and

1294
01:06:28.119 --> 01:06:32.440
her family grows suspicious, especially after discovering forged checks and

1295
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:38.119
complaints about the couple's behavior. Well hitchhiking through Texas, Lucas

1296
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:40.880
and Becky were picked up by a minister from a

1297
01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:46.760
Pentecostal commune called the House of Prayer and mystick. You

1298
01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:47.880
say that like you know them.

1299
01:06:48.199 --> 01:06:50.880
No, I just am very familiar with Pentecostal churches. They're

1300
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:54.639
very interesting. It's like if you combine Christianity with like

1301
01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:58.599
Edi m Raves. Go ahead, court Is that air.

1302
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:04.920
Is Pentecostalism came about during the charismatic Christian movement? Yes?

1303
01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:08.880
No, I mean please, if there's any more. You have

1304
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:09.719
never once.

1305
01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:12.000
Asked me to expand on religion things. And you have

1306
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.840
a guest and you're like, please go ahead. I has

1307
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:16.519
a degree in the study of religion. Okay, yeah, please

1308
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:17.800
go ahead, courtey. That's fine.

1309
01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:21.000
I'm gonna while you're explaining this, I'm gonna open this

1310
01:07:21.320 --> 01:07:24.639
and and this is true. We are continuing to drink

1311
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:29.760
our Ham's beer, which has on the front thebeer dot

1312
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:33.480
dot dot refreshing. Did we did they cut out? That?

1313
01:07:33.519 --> 01:07:34.199
Did get cut out?

1314
01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:34.559
Oh? Ship.

1315
01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:39.199
Yeah. Okay, yeah, so you'll hear me open this beer. Well,

1316
01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:45.480
Courtney gives us a quick update on Pentecostal commune. Okay, yeah,

1317
01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:50.719
so serious. Oh my god, believe it or not.

1318
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:54.360
I kind of it this in an episode I did

1319
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:55.400
about exorcisms.

1320
01:07:55.480 --> 01:07:58.119
I do believe that we had an exorcism. Episode two

1321
01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:00.639
is better. Here's probably better. Go ahead.

1322
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:06.400
Sorry, I've yeah, the amount of times I mentioned the

1323
01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:08.920
Anterestis movie in episodes, like I had a nickel for

1324
01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:09.599
every time I did it.

1325
01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:10.519
I have two nickels.

1326
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:13.559
It's weird that it happened twice and now a third.

1327
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:14.800
Perfect diving.

1328
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:26.439
So charismatic Christianity started in response to the Satanic panic

1329
01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:30.399
and the fear that people were being possessed by demons,

1330
01:08:31.319 --> 01:08:34.079
and it it was like this whole movement, So it

1331
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:37.560
was Pentecostalism was always kind of a thing, but they

1332
01:08:37.640 --> 01:08:43.279
got worse. It's like an extreme version of Pentecostalism, evangelicalism.

1333
01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:45.800
It all came abouts are in the Satanic panic and

1334
01:08:45.880 --> 01:08:48.920
response to what was going on in the world. So

1335
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:51.600
this is why you see like those big super churches

1336
01:08:51.680 --> 01:08:54.199
where they do like the you know, the rock bands

1337
01:08:54.239 --> 01:09:00.600
and everybody just absolutely falling literally falling to the floor,

1338
01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:06.479
speaking in tongues and just losing their minds. It was

1339
01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:16.399
all a result of charismatic William because you know, Anton

1340
01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:20.479
Leavey made the turch in and people freaked out. They went,

1341
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:21.239
that's not good.

1342
01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:24.560
Yeah, and what like I mean, you know, regardless of

1343
01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:28.439
like how anybody you know personally feels about like like

1344
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:33.319
the the the rights and wrongs of the organization of

1345
01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:36.039
the Church of Satan, like like because there's a lot

1346
01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:38.479
of a lot of cheeky goodness and a lot of

1347
01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:41.760
really shitty stuff. But like, but I mean I do

1348
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:44.720
I do always have like some like grudging respect for

1349
01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:49.039
grudging respect for like just just that level of kind

1350
01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:51.760
of being a dick, like like two people who are

1351
01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:53.760
who are dicks a lot of the times. Like like again,

1352
01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:56.239
I like I said, I have a degree in the

1353
01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:58.960
study of religion. I think that that religion can and

1354
01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:01.279
has been a great force for positive change in the

1355
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:03.640
world and also one of the most terrible things ever,

1356
01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:06.000
regardless of not getting of that right, where where is.

1357
01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:10.800
The Pentecostal movement today? But before it's still in big

1358
01:10:10.840 --> 01:10:13.680
warehouses doing the same shit. It's cool.

1359
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:15.520
I've been to a few and he said, it's like Graves,

1360
01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:20.239
it's rad like it's they're they're fucking rad like and

1361
01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:23.359
also kind of like spooky when you go there, because

1362
01:10:23.399 --> 01:10:25.199
it's like, oh, this is like real for people. They're

1363
01:10:25.239 --> 01:10:26.680
not justly having to good time like this is their thing.

1364
01:10:27.039 --> 01:10:28.720
But cool, I mean I can vibe.

1365
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:33.279
Okay, Now the minister does mistake them for a married couple,

1366
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:37.000
and the minister actually offers Lucas a job and give

1367
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:39.960
them a small apartment on the property, and for a

1368
01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:43.119
while they attend church and try to blend it. Some

1369
01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:45.840
of the most maddening things and I tad, I know

1370
01:10:45.880 --> 01:10:50.800
you'd kind of mentioned like the amount of we think

1371
01:10:50.800 --> 01:10:53.720
that the amount of murder is because nobody can be

1372
01:10:53.760 --> 01:10:57.439
that lucky. But it seems like, especially in Henry Lee Lucas,

1373
01:10:57.520 --> 01:11:01.279
has handed to well a lot of series of events

1374
01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:04.800
like we're given to them. They made They met a

1375
01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:08.119
woman who said, hey, Henry Lee Lucas, you look trustworthy.

1376
01:11:08.119 --> 01:11:11.159
Come help my mother in California will pay you. Oh

1377
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.680
you're with this fifteen year old girl. I bet you

1378
01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:16.640
guys are married. Because at this time Henry Lee Lucas

1379
01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:20.760
would have been in his forties and just assumed that

1380
01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:23.159
they were they were married and said, you know what,

1381
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:25.960
you like trustworthy, let's do some work around the churt

1382
01:11:26.359 --> 01:11:32.000
Like it's wild how just these yeah fell into place. Yeah,

1383
01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:34.840
with that, it's really a very.

1384
01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:37.239
Different, very different you know, cultural context in the in

1385
01:11:37.279 --> 01:11:40.560
the seventies eighties. Like obviously that's a big that accounts

1386
01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:42.079
for a lot of it, but like also, yeah, I

1387
01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:45.279
mean there's probably some I hesitate to call it luck

1388
01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:48.159
like in it and you know, from the perspective of

1389
01:11:48.279 --> 01:11:51.079
Lucas and earlier, like tool, yes, luck, but like for

1390
01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:53.199
for human society bad luck.

1391
01:11:53.359 --> 01:11:56.319
Yeah, yeah, it was bad for human society. Yeah. Now,

1392
01:11:56.359 --> 01:11:59.079
Becky does start to grow restless. She misses Florida, she

1393
01:11:59.119 --> 01:12:02.319
misses her family, she misses her friends. She's realized that

1394
01:12:02.439 --> 01:12:08.039
Henry Lee Lucas, with his leaky eye and his one

1395
01:12:08.039 --> 01:12:11.319
eye and two teeth, just maybe isn't what she's looking for. Sure.

1396
01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:15.279
When she's being fifteen years old, she eventually starts to

1397
01:12:16.479 --> 01:12:20.159
argue with Lucas, and like many women in Lucas's life,

1398
01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:24.119
Becky does disappear, and in June of nineteen eighty three,

1399
01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:28.640
Lucas was arrested for unlawful polossession of a firearm in Texas,

1400
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:32.600
which says a fucking lot. While in jail, he writes

1401
01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:35.199
the following letter to the sheriff. I have killed for

1402
01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:38.000
the past ten years and no one will believe me.

1403
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:41.199
I can't go on doing this. I also killed the

1404
01:12:41.239 --> 01:12:45.119
only girl I ever loved. Lucas confesses to murdering both

1405
01:12:45.239 --> 01:12:50.000
Becky and Katie Rich. He claims that he lured Becky

1406
01:12:50.039 --> 01:12:53.359
to a field in Denton, Texas, stabbed her, and engaged

1407
01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:57.199
in necrophilia with her corpse before dismembering and decapitating and

1408
01:12:57.239 --> 01:13:00.479
scattering her body. A month later, he says he killed

1409
01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:04.399
Katie Rich in Ringold, Texas, after convincing her to help

1410
01:13:04.439 --> 01:13:07.880
search for search for Becky, and he described stabbing her

1411
01:13:07.880 --> 01:13:11.920
and hiding her body in a drainage pipe. We actually

1412
01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:15.119
did to find the body of both of these women.

1413
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:17.319
What I thought was weird, and I've never got a

1414
01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:22.880
good explanation, was that Katie Rich very much lived in California,

1415
01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:25.840
but her body was found in Texas. And I have

1416
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:29.560
never found a good explanation for how she got from

1417
01:13:29.560 --> 01:13:33.159
California to Text. She must have gone with h Becky

1418
01:13:33.239 --> 01:13:35.479
and Henry Lee Lucas. I don't know if they were

1419
01:13:35.560 --> 01:13:38.159
if she was killed before or after or what the

1420
01:13:38.920 --> 01:13:43.439
what that was? But afterwards, and I believe that there's

1421
01:13:43.479 --> 01:13:46.000
a great scene in Have either of you seen The

1422
01:13:46.039 --> 01:13:50.279
Confession Killer on Netflix? No? No, I have no. It's

1423
01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:52.359
very good it about Henry L. Lucas, because Henry Lucas

1424
01:13:52.439 --> 01:13:55.079
was later called the confession Killer. But apparently they march

1425
01:13:55.159 --> 01:13:57.199
him up in front of the judge after, you know,

1426
01:13:57.279 --> 01:14:00.479
finding the body of Becky, the body of of Katie

1427
01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:03.880
Rich They said, hey, we're going to you know, do

1428
01:14:03.920 --> 01:14:06.399
you understand your rights? Do you understand you're going to

1429
01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:08.359
be charged for murder? Do you understand all these things?

1430
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:10.199
He getting ready to plead guilty in front of the judge,

1431
01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:12.920
and he says, no, I did it, but what about

1432
01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:16.079
those other hundreds of women that I've killed? And at

1433
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:18.720
that point it's like the fuck did he just say?

1434
01:14:19.399 --> 01:14:24.399
And there kind of starts this confession to hundreds and

1435
01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:29.520
hundreds and hundreds of murders that Henry L. Lucas confesses to,

1436
01:14:29.720 --> 01:14:31.600
and and and we had kind of talked about a

1437
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:36.840
little bit, but Henry, the police would come and say, hey, Henry,

1438
01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:40.960
we have this, this body, this this young lady was found.

1439
01:14:41.520 --> 01:14:43.520
We don't have any clues to her, and they'd ask

1440
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:45.880
him if he did it or if he didn't do it,

1441
01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:50.640
and and sometimes, very often, unfortunately, Henry Lucas to be like, oh, yeah,

1442
01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:54.239
I killed her during my crime spree, and that was

1443
01:14:54.399 --> 01:14:58.600
sometimes all it took for them to say, oh, yeah,

1444
01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:02.199
he's the murk. He's closed. It would actually take up too.

1445
01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:07.359
They closed over two hundred and thirty cases on Henry

1446
01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:11.359
Lee Lucas before somebody started doing the math and said, well,

1447
01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:14.079
this doesn't make sense because how was he in California

1448
01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:17.199
and then twelve hours later he was in Missouri and

1449
01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:20.880
then uh, two days later he's back in California, and

1450
01:15:20.920 --> 01:15:23.800
then he was in Texas like and and oh, by

1451
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:25.960
the way, Henry Le Lucas was locked up during this

1452
01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:28.359
entire time, Like we know he was in jail because's

1453
01:15:28.399 --> 01:15:31.920
jail records for it. So how or he got a ticket,

1454
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:35.039
you know in New York when he said he was

1455
01:15:35.079 --> 01:15:41.920
murdering somebody in Texas. So very much a liar h

1456
01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:43.920
with that. I just want to kind of get your

1457
01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:48.039
guys' thoughts on the confessions, you know, maybe double it

1458
01:15:48.119 --> 01:15:50.640
back to how many murders do we think that he

1459
01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:54.159
actually committed, and then we'll kind of touch base on

1460
01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:57.640
the audust tool side of things. But you know, just

1461
01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:00.720
just what do you guys think about the confession? I mean,

1462
01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:04.800
it is lazy law enforcements, you know, is our chance

1463
01:16:04.840 --> 01:16:07.680
maybe he did do a lot more motivations. What are

1464
01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:08.279
you guys thinking?

1465
01:16:10.079 --> 01:16:15.399
For me personally, the part of it is lazy police work.

1466
01:16:15.840 --> 01:16:18.239
And I'm very vocal about the fact that police in

1467
01:16:18.279 --> 01:16:23.399
the seventies and the early eighties were astonishingly bad at

1468
01:16:23.399 --> 01:16:28.560
their jobs. Yeah, not even like fair the fact that

1469
01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:31.840
you know, yes they lacked like the technology, that's not

1470
01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:34.479
their fault, but a lot of it was just like

1471
01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:45.520
plain boneheaded stupidity and laziness. So I think because he

1472
01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:49.319
Henry le Lucas said, you know, I killed like all

1473
01:16:49.359 --> 01:16:51.680
of these people, police went, We'll wait a second, there's

1474
01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:53.920
a lot less work for us to do. So if

1475
01:16:53.920 --> 01:16:57.199
he confesses to it, we don't have to really do anything.

1476
01:16:57.760 --> 01:17:00.680
But we still get the whole like week is the case,

1477
01:17:00.720 --> 01:17:02.479
we did such a good job kind of thing.

1478
01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:05.239
You don't think that there's an I don't want to

1479
01:17:05.399 --> 01:17:08.119
challenge this, but but but you know, maybe push back

1480
01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:10.359
on it a little bit. But I realized police work

1481
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:11.720
at the time, But don't you think there might have

1482
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:14.119
been some motivation to try and close these cases to

1483
01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:18.239
give the victim's family some closure. So maybe not, maybe

1484
01:17:18.279 --> 01:17:21.279
not just let me finished, but maybe not just a

1485
01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:23.680
we need to close this case. It helps our stats.

1486
01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:25.479
We don't want these on our books. But also they're

1487
01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:28.319
kind of keeping in mind that you know, these people,

1488
01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:31.800
these victims family want closure, and even though it's an

1489
01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:35.279
easy answer, you know that's the main motivation.

1490
01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:38.079
Can I Can I jump in and answer that, So no,

1491
01:17:38.359 --> 01:17:41.159
because I don't think that that the type of people

1492
01:17:41.239 --> 01:17:46.319
who are primarily concerned with something as nuanced is bringing

1493
01:17:46.359 --> 01:17:49.079
closure to grieving families are the type of people in

1494
01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:52.199
the nineteen seventies to get into police work. I'm I'm

1495
01:17:52.359 --> 01:17:53.720
that's way generalizing.

1496
01:17:53.760 --> 01:17:54.880
I know they're sure.

1497
01:17:54.920 --> 01:17:58.279
I'm sure there were great detectives and officers in the seventies,

1498
01:17:58.359 --> 01:18:02.239
but I think in the vast majority probably weren't too

1499
01:18:02.239 --> 01:18:05.359
concerned with that somewhere. But I don't think that was

1500
01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:06.800
a main motivation for a lot.

1501
01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:09.079
Cordy do.

1502
01:18:09.399 --> 01:18:15.600
I think obviously it's I'm generalizing. Not all cops were

1503
01:18:15.640 --> 01:18:17.359
like this. Some of them are very good at their jobs,

1504
01:18:17.399 --> 01:18:20.359
some of them are very, very passionate about closing the case.

1505
01:18:20.760 --> 01:18:23.119
But I think that the ones that were passionate about

1506
01:18:23.199 --> 01:18:26.199
closing the case would not have taken a simple confession

1507
01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:28.199
at face value. They would have done more to try

1508
01:18:28.199 --> 01:18:31.520
and figure it out. But I also in that same

1509
01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:35.079
main know that say, just in California, for example, around

1510
01:18:35.079 --> 01:18:39.199
the same time I covered a case, Shiris Nuisan was murdered.

1511
01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:41.560
It took them like twenty five years to solve this,

1512
01:18:42.960 --> 01:18:46.520
partly because they didn't have the resources, but also partly

1513
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:50.760
because when her father came to them and said, I

1514
01:18:50.800 --> 01:18:54.439
think you really need to look into my son in

1515
01:18:54.520 --> 01:18:58.039
law's ex girlfriend about this. I really think there might

1516
01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:01.000
be some truth to like the rumors that she was involved.

1517
01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:04.039
The police looked him in his face and went, you

1518
01:19:04.079 --> 01:19:05.239
watch too much crime TV?

1519
01:19:05.720 --> 01:19:08.039
Oh? Really? Well yes, so.

1520
01:19:08.239 --> 01:19:11.319
And this was during the same time, this was like eighties.

1521
01:19:12.600 --> 01:19:17.199
So were there some police officers that were absolutely phenomenal

1522
01:19:17.279 --> 01:19:21.039
at their jobs and wanted to like really bring closure

1523
01:19:21.439 --> 01:19:25.840
and justice to these families. Absolutely, But I would die

1524
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:27.479
on the hill that they weren't going to take his

1525
01:19:27.520 --> 01:19:29.520
confession of face value. They would have looked into it

1526
01:19:29.560 --> 01:19:31.439
instead of just taking it for.

1527
01:19:31.399 --> 01:19:35.319
What it was. Well, and I'm not trying to defend,

1528
01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:37.760
but there were a lot of instances where they would

1529
01:19:37.760 --> 01:19:40.359
take Henry Lee Lucas. They wouldn't just show him pictures

1530
01:19:40.439 --> 01:19:41.880
or just say hey, you do it, and then they

1531
01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:43.359
say yep, and then they'd move on their way. There

1532
01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:45.079
were a lot of times where Henry Lee Lucas would

1533
01:19:45.079 --> 01:19:48.000
actually go to crime seeds and he would they would

1534
01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:49.680
drive him around. He'd be like, yep, I did this,

1535
01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:53.359
I had it here, and truthy, sometimes they did find

1536
01:19:53.359 --> 01:19:55.279
bodies and then other times they did not.

1537
01:19:55.560 --> 01:19:58.079
Well, nobody, I don't think anybody's arguing that all of

1538
01:19:58.119 --> 01:20:00.439
the confessions were bullshit, but some of the work.

1539
01:20:00.600 --> 01:20:03.960
Yeah, well that's fact. It was Henry Le Lucas. When

1540
01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:08.079
he was able to talk about his crimes. They gave

1541
01:20:08.119 --> 01:20:11.000
Henry Lee Lucas, within reason, just about anything he wanted,

1542
01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:15.720
which was most often, uh, coffee and cigarettes. And so

1543
01:20:15.840 --> 01:20:18.479
he got a constant supply of this when he was

1544
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:21.920
confessing to these to these crimes, and so you know,

1545
01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:26.199
there was obviously motivation there for him to lie and

1546
01:20:26.199 --> 01:20:28.840
and is part of the point. And another thing is

1547
01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:33.279
there's obviously motivation for police to get a conviction like

1548
01:20:33.359 --> 01:20:36.520
to to close a case, whether it's whether it's noble

1549
01:20:36.600 --> 01:20:38.760
or not, and kind of in a discuss I mean

1550
01:20:38.840 --> 01:20:42.640
a little disgusting. But Henry Le Lucas claims that in

1551
01:20:42.680 --> 01:20:46.479
prison he found God and that even though he couldn't

1552
01:20:46.560 --> 01:20:51.000
remember all of the victims, he was just going to

1553
01:20:51.079 --> 01:20:55.199
leave it to God to help him remember all of

1554
01:20:55.239 --> 01:20:58.520
the victims. Uh, he had a very good relationship with

1555
01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:01.479
I believe it was a nut that was would work

1556
01:21:01.520 --> 01:21:05.880
with the prison and and you know, I don't know

1557
01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:08.640
about how you guys feel about that in terms of

1558
01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:12.600
his turn to Christianity. If if you can.

1559
01:21:12.479 --> 01:21:18.079
Call or for me, it's just hard to believe anything.

1560
01:21:18.319 --> 01:21:20.560
I'm not saying like I don't know, but it's just

1561
01:21:20.600 --> 01:21:24.680
like not because it's a turn to Christianity, but like anything,

1562
01:21:24.720 --> 01:21:27.680
if if it was anything that that he purported to

1563
01:21:27.760 --> 01:21:29.840
have done, I would be skeptical for good reason.

1564
01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:36.560
Sure, I feel.

1565
01:21:38.840 --> 01:21:44.079
I have a very u time for with people that

1566
01:21:44.319 --> 01:21:49.359
commit such terrible crimes saying they found any sort of

1567
01:21:49.560 --> 01:21:54.319
religion because they're using it and maybe and some of

1568
01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.199
them I'm sure are truthful that they have found peace

1569
01:21:57.319 --> 01:22:04.640
with God or whatever and tea they believe in My

1570
01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:07.159
issue with it, though, is that a lot of them

1571
01:22:07.279 --> 01:22:11.640
use it as a way to say, well, it doesn't

1572
01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:14.359
matter if you think I'm a bad person, because I

1573
01:22:14.560 --> 01:22:17.159
pray it and now I am forgiven and it's not

1574
01:22:17.279 --> 01:22:22.359
the way things work. I am positive that his relationship

1575
01:22:22.439 --> 01:22:26.239
or this friendship with the nun was self serving, and

1576
01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:29.840
whether it was simply the fact that he got regular

1577
01:22:29.920 --> 01:22:31.439
conversation with someone.

1578
01:22:31.520 --> 01:22:36.199
Right, No agreed, And also like and I like, I'm

1579
01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:37.880
like I said, I do think he's, you know, a

1580
01:22:37.880 --> 01:22:42.119
couples flyer, but like I'm not, I'm not qualified in

1581
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:44.119
any way to say whether you know he's telling the

1582
01:22:44.119 --> 01:22:46.800
truth about finding religion or not. But but I think

1583
01:22:46.800 --> 01:22:49.479
it's clear that there's some level of, like you said,

1584
01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:51.399
there's some level of you know, self serving nature to

1585
01:22:51.439 --> 01:22:55.279
what's happening, because like I mean, to be a little cynical,

1586
01:22:55.359 --> 01:22:57.840
like he's a human, there's always some level of self

1587
01:22:57.880 --> 01:22:59.920
serving nature to the things we do. Like it does

1588
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.840
I mean, it's it's for sure false, like maybe he

1589
01:23:02.920 --> 01:23:05.479
really did think he had found religion to some extent.

1590
01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:08.159
Well, I think what makes it very difficult is when

1591
01:23:08.159 --> 01:23:10.159
you start, like when he talks about some of the

1592
01:23:10.279 --> 01:23:12.359
murder why he committed some of the murders. He said,

1593
01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:15.279
going back to the Satanic panic that he did it,

1594
01:23:15.319 --> 01:23:18.800
there was a a hand of death cult that told

1595
01:23:18.880 --> 01:23:23.760
him to murder people for uh, for the call to

1596
01:23:23.800 --> 01:23:29.640
push Satanism. And and I mean corny if you could,

1597
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:34.600
how real was the Satanic panic in that? Did cults

1598
01:23:34.680 --> 01:23:37.960
really operate in this way of murdering random people for

1599
01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:42.760
the driving force of what a platform satan? I love this,

1600
01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:46.840
you know? Or is this just something Henry Lee Lucas

1601
01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:50.520
would have made up because he doesn't understand anything about Satanism.

1602
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:52.840
The likelihood that he made that up is very high.

1603
01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:55.800
Okay, that's much nicer than I was going to say,

1604
01:23:55.800 --> 01:23:58.800
but go on, But yes, it's.

1605
01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:05.279
It was very, very very rare for anyone involved in

1606
01:24:05.319 --> 01:24:09.600
any sort of devil worship during this time to.

1607
01:24:09.640 --> 01:24:10.319
Be a murderer.

1608
01:24:11.239 --> 01:24:17.680
There were two types of versions, or there were a

1609
01:24:17.720 --> 01:24:21.319
few different types of Satanism. You have the Anteoni Bay

1610
01:24:21.399 --> 01:24:26.560
version of Satanism. They did weird virtuals they did do

1611
01:24:28.079 --> 01:24:33.119
they They claim that there was some level of virtualistic sacrifice.

1612
01:24:33.319 --> 01:24:38.439
There were weird rules that they had, but most of

1613
01:24:38.479 --> 01:24:43.840
them were like kind of they weren't quote unquote terrible.

1614
01:24:43.840 --> 01:24:45.880
They're they're a little out there. Like you know, if

1615
01:24:45.920 --> 01:24:49.479
someone like one of their rules or their tenants is

1616
01:24:49.479 --> 01:24:51.640
if someone annoys you and you tell them to stop

1617
01:24:51.680 --> 01:24:54.199
and they don't, like basically like you can take them down,

1618
01:24:54.279 --> 01:24:55.800
like just show them all your wrath kind of thing,

1619
01:24:55.840 --> 01:25:00.079
which is like a little ridiculous, but you know whatever, fine, Well, a.

1620
01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:01.840
Lot of it, sorry, sorry, I was just saying, like

1621
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:05.000
LaVey and Satanism from from the brief amount that I

1622
01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:07.319
kind of vaguely understand, like a lot of it is

1623
01:25:07.439 --> 01:25:11.119
just like kind of sarcastic, reactionary, like like anti Christian,

1624
01:25:11.319 --> 01:25:13.039
like having fun with it.

1625
01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:16.119
It is, and some people, did you know, they do

1626
01:25:16.159 --> 01:25:19.079
take it very seriously, you know, they do have that

1627
01:25:19.199 --> 01:25:22.840
ritualistic aspect, but they're very loose with it. Like it's

1628
01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:24.960
not like, you know, let's go out in the woods,

1629
01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:29.960
you know, by the light of the fire and sacrifice,

1630
01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:33.640
you know, a goat to the devil. It's a lot

1631
01:25:33.680 --> 01:25:38.000
of it had to do with sexual gratification and things

1632
01:25:38.039 --> 01:25:44.600
like that. Then you have the UH Church or the

1633
01:25:44.640 --> 01:25:46.840
temple of the Satanic Temple, that's what it is, the

1634
01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:51.880
Satanic Temple, which is like inherently good like the antithesis

1635
01:25:51.880 --> 01:25:54.720
of leven and Satanism. Yes, very very good. They're all

1636
01:25:54.760 --> 01:25:57.840
about you know, science and you know being true to

1637
01:25:57.880 --> 01:26:00.960
yourself and advocating for people is great, great, great stuff.

1638
01:26:01.800 --> 01:26:06.199
But during the Satanic Panic, the likelihood of people like

1639
01:26:06.279 --> 01:26:08.119
running around committing murders in the name of the devil

1640
01:26:08.279 --> 01:26:12.359
was not happening. The LaVey and Satanism didn't even believe

1641
01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:14.840
in that. One of their tenants is essentially like, you

1642
01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:16.840
can't say the devil made me do it. That's not

1643
01:26:16.920 --> 01:26:17.239
a thing.

1644
01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:22.119
So you think that there was not a cult called

1645
01:26:22.239 --> 01:26:25.479
the Hand of Death which trained henerally lucas an oddest

1646
01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:28.560
tool to kill people, disposed of bodies, and that they

1647
01:26:28.600 --> 01:26:32.479
were a shadow organization with hundreds of members the United States,

1648
01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:36.439
and they were just foot soldiers in a network of evil,

1649
01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:38.399
you say, and that is maybe false.

1650
01:26:38.880 --> 01:26:41.600
I'm saying that this is probably a false Was there

1651
01:26:41.720 --> 01:26:45.880
maybe could there have been like a little group people

1652
01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:47.399
that were kind of like this, Yes, it was not

1653
01:26:47.479 --> 01:26:52.199
part of a bigger picture. This was incredibly rare. Were

1654
01:26:52.239 --> 01:26:57.399
there like Satanic like offshoots, yes, but most of them

1655
01:26:57.439 --> 01:26:59.439
did their own thing. They were very passive, They were

1656
01:26:59.479 --> 01:27:02.319
living their life the people that took it to the

1657
01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:04.399
extreme of I'm going to kill for the devil was

1658
01:27:04.640 --> 01:27:09.680
so far and few between that the likelihood of this

1659
01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:11.520
being a thing is like Slimton on.

1660
01:27:11.800 --> 01:27:15.840
They weren't in the Florida evergades and on an island

1661
01:27:15.920 --> 01:27:20.199
only accessible by airboat. As Henry Lucas claimed, that's you're

1662
01:27:20.239 --> 01:27:21.520
saying he might have lied about that.

1663
01:27:21.960 --> 01:27:23.600
Do you think it might have been an exaggeration.

1664
01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:26.920
Oh, we're gonna go to his exaggeration. Okay, all right

1665
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:30.880
now for Audest Tool, He was arrested in April of

1666
01:27:31.000 --> 01:27:34.000
nineteen eighty three and Jacksonville, Florida, after setting fire to

1667
01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:35.880
a home of a man he claimed to have a

1668
01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:40.239
romantic relationship with. I'm glad he moved on from Henry

1669
01:27:40.319 --> 01:27:43.279
Le Lucas so quickly. Inside the house, the police find

1670
01:27:43.279 --> 01:27:47.319
the victim, George Sonenberg, who was killed in the fire.

1671
01:27:47.439 --> 01:27:51.279
Once in custody, Tool starts confessing to the George Sonenberg

1672
01:27:51.640 --> 01:27:54.439
animals and literally have one hundreds of other murders that

1673
01:27:54.520 --> 01:27:58.600
he committed with Henry Lee Lucas. Addest Tool would die

1674
01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:01.880
on September fifteenth, of night ninety six due to liver

1675
01:28:02.000 --> 01:28:07.399
failure brought on from literally all the hepatitises and aids complication,

1676
01:28:07.800 --> 01:28:11.359
Whereas Henry Lee Lucas would die on March twelfth of

1677
01:28:11.399 --> 01:28:15.640
two thousand and one at a Hilltop Unit prison in Gatesville, Florida.

1678
01:28:16.239 --> 01:28:19.359
He was sixty four years old and died of heart failure.

1679
01:28:19.800 --> 01:28:22.920
So the world is well, I don't wish death necessarily

1680
01:28:22.920 --> 01:28:26.960
among anyone. The world is a much better place without

1681
01:28:27.039 --> 01:28:28.319
Audust Tool, and Henry Lee.

1682
01:28:28.239 --> 01:28:31.079
Lucas has necessarily held up so much weight. We're like,

1683
01:28:31.119 --> 01:28:34.439
I don't wish death necessarily on anybody. Just no, I

1684
01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:37.520
do a lot of heavy necessarily.

1685
01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:41.920
Yeah, I gotcha, but but you know, knowing, you know,

1686
01:28:41.960 --> 01:28:44.840
that's kind of where we're at with the Henry Lee Lucas,

1687
01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:49.760
the Audust Tool, and they're just bizarre maybe crime spree.

1688
01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:54.439
And I'll just so we Corney can get the final

1689
01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:58.640
word in. I'll say my thoughts, Ted, you do yours,

1690
01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:01.479
and then Corney kick us off with the final thoughts.

1691
01:29:01.520 --> 01:29:04.720
I think both these men were, you know, kind of

1692
01:29:05.039 --> 01:29:07.680
probably the most evil of evil people. But I think

1693
01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:11.079
that it's very likely that they did kill some people.

1694
01:29:11.159 --> 01:29:14.520
But it's very hard to know exactly the extent of it,

1695
01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:17.279
you know, I think maybe I'm in Ted's boat, maybe

1696
01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:21.880
thirty to forty at most, but it's very hard to know.

1697
01:29:22.439 --> 01:29:25.199
I don't think it probably got to the six hundred.

1698
01:29:25.720 --> 01:29:31.560
That seems unlikely. That seems unlikely. It seems very unlikely. Yeah,

1699
01:29:31.600 --> 01:29:36.640
And and you know, I don't think honest tool murdered

1700
01:29:37.079 --> 01:29:41.479
Adam Walsh. I don't think he had the foresight and

1701
01:29:41.520 --> 01:29:44.960
the gumption to do a lot of those things, to

1702
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:49.600
do the planning that would be involved. I think the yes, yes,

1703
01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:52.119
I don't think he necessary. I think he's capable of

1704
01:29:52.159 --> 01:29:54.319
doing it, but I don't think he probably had the foresight.

1705
01:29:54.720 --> 01:29:56.159
I mean, it's one of those It's one of those

1706
01:29:56.199 --> 01:30:00.960
situations I think where there is, I mean, two people

1707
01:30:01.000 --> 01:30:03.600
together is a net negative for the world. And I

1708
01:30:03.640 --> 01:30:07.079
think was it the Ken and Barbie Killer I think

1709
01:30:07.119 --> 01:30:11.000
are a good example. Is it Bernardo? I can't I

1710
01:30:11.000 --> 01:30:15.359
can't remember their names, but them together Bianchi and uh

1711
01:30:17.720 --> 01:30:20.159
are you about Hillside Stranglers? No, no, no, well I

1712
01:30:20.199 --> 01:30:21.880
mean them too, But but there's like the Ken and

1713
01:30:21.920 --> 01:30:26.399
Barbie Killer from from Canada, I cannot remember. I thought

1714
01:30:26.479 --> 01:30:28.880
Bernardo was one of those. I just assumed you were

1715
01:30:29.000 --> 01:30:31.119
very regardless of Coordiney do you do you know who

1716
01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:31.880
I'm talking about.

1717
01:30:32.159 --> 01:30:36.720
Yeah, it's Bernardo. Her name is Carla Hamilta, Yes, that's right. Yeah,

1718
01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:38.439
but him, I can't remember his name.

1719
01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:40.800
Yeah, yeah, no, But but I think in that terms,

1720
01:30:41.439 --> 01:30:43.840
I don't think they would have committed as many crimes,

1721
01:30:43.960 --> 01:30:46.039
if not separate. I think it's the same. It's true

1722
01:30:46.600 --> 01:30:48.600
from Henry Le Lucas and honest tool or at the

1723
01:30:48.680 --> 01:30:51.359
very least the crimes that they would have committed, I

1724
01:30:51.359 --> 01:30:53.800
think they would have been found very quickly. I think

1725
01:30:53.800 --> 01:30:55.840
the fact that they were in this drifter mentality one

1726
01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:58.000
move in the other. I think it actually was an

1727
01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:02.399
unfortunately net negative with that. But uh, realistically, just some

1728
01:31:02.439 --> 01:31:07.000
of the worst people, uh on earth and and really

1729
01:31:07.239 --> 01:31:11.840
wish I hope we don't necessarily see anything to this extreme. Again,

1730
01:31:11.880 --> 01:31:16.119
I hope it's unlikely. But but I mean, just fuck

1731
01:31:16.199 --> 01:31:19.119
those guys, you know, hot take, fuck those guys. So

1732
01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:25.399
uh Ted, what are your final thoughts? I I mean.

1733
01:31:25.319 --> 01:31:26.800
Yeah, like the last thing you say, I mean you

1734
01:31:26.880 --> 01:31:28.479
kind of summed up everybody's thoughts there.

1735
01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:29.279
That was a little much.

1736
01:31:29.560 --> 01:31:31.319
No, but but no, I mean I agree, like, yeah,

1737
01:31:31.359 --> 01:31:34.000
I agree with pretty much everything he said. I think

1738
01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:37.319
the main point is just that, like I'm I'm glad

1739
01:31:37.319 --> 01:31:39.359
that we did this, but I'm so I'm so much

1740
01:31:39.399 --> 01:31:42.119
more glad to be done talking about them. I'm glad

1741
01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:44.840
that in our in our retaelling, they're dead. Like, yeah,

1742
01:31:44.880 --> 01:31:49.399
that's fair. That's just bad. Just like to put it

1743
01:31:49.640 --> 01:31:50.960
very simply, just all bad.

1744
01:31:51.760 --> 01:31:56.800
That's I don't have much to add. Yeah, that's it. Courtney.

1745
01:31:57.079 --> 01:32:00.479
Final thoughts on Henry Lee Lucas and on Tool.

1746
01:32:03.880 --> 01:32:07.279
I mean, you put it pretty well in the sense

1747
01:32:07.319 --> 01:32:15.119
that I think that them being together, being drifters, both

1748
01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:20.600
having these horrific mindsets that they kind of and they

1749
01:32:20.640 --> 01:32:23.479
could kind of feed off of each other and how

1750
01:32:23.520 --> 01:32:27.560
they felt was a recipe for all of the murders

1751
01:32:27.600 --> 01:32:32.119
they committed. It was absolutely not in the hundreds.

1752
01:32:33.199 --> 01:32:35.479
Dozens maybe definitely.

1753
01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:39.199
I'm sure you could say dozens. You know, I think

1754
01:32:39.319 --> 01:32:43.039
forty is saying like that's that's definitely like I think

1755
01:32:43.520 --> 01:32:45.520
be as high as an exaggeration as I would be

1756
01:32:45.520 --> 01:32:45.920
willing to go.

1757
01:32:46.079 --> 01:32:48.640
Yeah, that's an upper limit for me, because I mean,

1758
01:32:48.960 --> 01:32:51.600
put it in kind of the context of serial killers,

1759
01:32:51.640 --> 01:32:55.039
like about twenty is about as top as it gets

1760
01:32:55.399 --> 01:32:58.720
for a single for a single person. Yeah, right, I

1761
01:32:58.720 --> 01:33:00.880
mean at twenty to thirty is kind of like there

1762
01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:05.199
are that I yeah, I mean outside I think there's

1763
01:33:05.239 --> 01:33:09.479
some apologize cultural and centsive. I think there's some some

1764
01:33:09.600 --> 01:33:10.600
Japanese serial.

1765
01:33:10.439 --> 01:33:13.840
Killers that I think have when it comes to like US,

1766
01:33:13.880 --> 01:33:16.800
I think I think Gary Ridgeway holds that. I think

1767
01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:20.359
he's the domestic serial killer with the most like purely

1768
01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:23.720
just US, I think. But I could be wrong. I

1769
01:33:23.840 --> 01:33:26.000
absolutely could be wrong. But then yeah, there's some non

1770
01:33:26.159 --> 01:33:31.399
there's some some serial killers from from non US that

1771
01:33:31.399 --> 01:33:34.079
that I think have higher numbers. But but yeah, no,

1772
01:33:34.159 --> 01:33:36.279
either way, your point is valid, Like twenty is like

1773
01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:38.840
near for most at upper level.

1774
01:33:39.239 --> 01:33:42.199
Yeah, I mean because we'll put it into perspective of

1775
01:33:42.239 --> 01:33:45.399
other serial killers. I mean even even ones like worldwide.

1776
01:33:45.439 --> 01:33:49.119
I did h the Academy Maniacs and they were like

1777
01:33:49.319 --> 01:33:51.520
a twenty year old or nineteen year old and a

1778
01:33:51.560 --> 01:33:57.359
seventeen year old and they killed, they attacked, slash killed

1779
01:33:57.520 --> 01:34:02.399
fourteen people in like six months. So yeah, they were.

1780
01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:08.600
That's good. It was the most confirmed in United States

1781
01:34:08.720 --> 01:34:13.479
is Samuel Little. That's right. Confirmed victims was over sixty,

1782
01:34:13.520 --> 01:34:17.399
but he confessed to over ninety three from nineteen seventy

1783
01:34:17.439 --> 01:34:20.039
to two thousand and five. Yeah, yeah, that's.

1784
01:34:19.960 --> 01:34:22.800
Right, Samuel Most I remember that, So.

1785
01:34:22.800 --> 01:34:26.279
Sixty would be the most. And Henry Le Lucas and Autist

1786
01:34:26.279 --> 01:34:29.560
Tool are saying hundreds, and I mean we're talking like

1787
01:34:29.720 --> 01:34:33.840
five times more than what we know for a fact.

1788
01:34:34.079 --> 01:34:36.960
And that sixty over a longer period of time too.

1789
01:34:37.760 --> 01:34:39.960
That's that is fair because they would have done it

1790
01:34:40.000 --> 01:34:42.600
in five years. I think how long five six years

1791
01:34:42.960 --> 01:34:45.760
all that they were together, sam O Little was thirty

1792
01:34:45.760 --> 01:34:46.479
five years.

1793
01:34:46.279 --> 01:34:51.239
Yep, yeah, which I mean, if if you're going to

1794
01:34:51.279 --> 01:34:54.000
put it into the perspective of what a reasonable amount

1795
01:34:54.000 --> 01:34:55.640
of time would take to kill all these people, like

1796
01:34:55.680 --> 01:34:57.520
seventy five years, sixty, people like.

1797
01:34:57.880 --> 01:35:01.840
No, give me the math, break it down.

1798
01:35:02.800 --> 01:35:07.479
Sense, you know, like in in when you like look

1799
01:35:07.479 --> 01:35:11.760
at it from that purview. But you know, hundreds of

1800
01:35:11.760 --> 01:35:14.039
people in five years, you're talking about killing like at

1801
01:35:14.119 --> 01:35:18.960
least one person every couple of days. It's not realistic, right.

1802
01:35:18.920 --> 01:35:21.439
Well, and then what's what's fascinating. What's frustrating, I would say,

1803
01:35:21.479 --> 01:35:24.359
is the police were like two hundred and twenty before

1804
01:35:24.359 --> 01:35:29.960
Somebody's like that doesn't sound right, right, yeah, I mean realistically,

1805
01:35:30.039 --> 01:35:31.520
and then when and then when they asked him. He's like,

1806
01:35:31.560 --> 01:35:34.439
once you just start, you just can't stop. It's like, yeah,

1807
01:35:34.520 --> 01:35:37.000
we're talking about like murder though, Yeah, I mean yeah,

1808
01:35:37.079 --> 01:35:41.279
not not Oreo Yeah, or girl Scout cookies. Yeah, what'd

1809
01:35:41.319 --> 01:35:45.439
you say? Grapes, potatoes, potato, that's where the thing comes.

1810
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:45.760
Yeah.

1811
01:35:46.239 --> 01:35:51.960
Yeah, once you once you, you can't stop that Springles. Yes, yes,

1812
01:35:52.000 --> 01:35:55.000
we had a very long conversation about the sexy Pringle man.

1813
01:35:55.239 --> 01:35:58.399
Oh yeah, and what his body looks like. Yeah, the

1814
01:35:58.439 --> 01:36:00.760
world may never know, but I have a lot of

1815
01:36:00.800 --> 01:36:02.880
memes from Ted of what we think it might look.

1816
01:36:02.960 --> 01:36:04.560
Yeah, I just sent you suff from last week tonight

1817
01:36:04.640 --> 01:36:08.000
yet anyway, Okay, all right, so.

1818
01:36:08.039 --> 01:36:12.760
Final thoughts, are those guys probably not not a fan?

1819
01:36:13.039 --> 01:36:16.520
Yeah, I feel comfortable saying that I'm not a fan

1820
01:36:16.560 --> 01:36:16.840
of them.

1821
01:36:16.880 --> 01:36:20.520
The official ct A at least is not a fan.

1822
01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:24.439
I'm also the Book of the Dead official stand not

1823
01:36:24.560 --> 01:36:29.239
a fan. I'm glad we could come together on that. So, Uh, Courtney,

1824
01:36:29.239 --> 01:36:32.239
it was wonderful having you on the show. Uh if

1825
01:36:32.239 --> 01:36:36.000
you would, please, you know, plug your socials where I

1826
01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:41.159
can talk or whatever you want. Yeah, you please us.

1827
01:36:41.199 --> 01:36:44.960
Thank you for being on, enjoying the conversation with you.

1828
01:36:45.039 --> 01:36:49.119
But how can people find your show and and get

1829
01:36:49.119 --> 01:36:51.920
to know more about you and and or an episode

1830
01:36:52.000 --> 01:36:53.239
or something they should check out.

1831
01:36:53.319 --> 01:36:58.800
Yeah, you can find the Book of the Dead literally everywhere,

1832
01:37:00.520 --> 01:37:03.800
but not a book. But yeah, you can't read it. Well,

1833
01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:06.159
you can read the Book of the Dead, but it's

1834
01:37:06.199 --> 01:37:06.680
not mine.

1835
01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:11.680
There's now transcripts if just put those Spotify as transcripts real.

1836
01:37:11.680 --> 01:37:14.680
They do de transcripts, so I guess technically you could

1837
01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:17.119
read the podcast, so that I can't promise it's accurate

1838
01:37:17.159 --> 01:37:21.279
to what I'm actually saying. There's some it comes up

1839
01:37:21.279 --> 01:37:25.720
with some weird stuff. If you want more Satanic talk,

1840
01:37:25.880 --> 01:37:29.359
I've done a couple of episodes on Satanism, most recently

1841
01:37:29.439 --> 01:37:33.000
The Beasts of Satan in Italy, where you can watch

1842
01:37:33.079 --> 01:37:38.520
me struggle through Italian pronunciations and you can you can

1843
01:37:38.640 --> 01:37:43.760
literally hear my my grandfather rolling in his way. I

1844
01:37:43.920 --> 01:37:47.760
tried really hard. Some of them are easy, some of

1845
01:37:47.800 --> 01:37:52.079
them are not. And then I recently did Genness Pama

1846
01:37:52.199 --> 01:37:53.520
and that was a really good episode too, And I

1847
01:37:53.560 --> 01:37:57.720
had the case file from that Springfield No, not Springfield Police.

1848
01:37:57.720 --> 01:37:58.560
They wouldn't talk to me.

1849
01:37:58.920 --> 01:37:59.960
Union count did you call that?

1850
01:38:01.439 --> 01:38:04.239
I emailed, they would not talk to me, but.

1851
01:38:04.159 --> 01:38:08.359
What if kind of a rejection email sound like basically

1852
01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:12.760
it's a thank you so much for your interest, Okay,

1853
01:38:13.079 --> 01:38:13.760
and then that's it.

1854
01:38:14.239 --> 01:38:20.479
That's it. Yeah. Union County prosecutors oppositely give me the

1855
01:38:20.520 --> 01:38:21.640
file though, which was great.

1856
01:38:22.039 --> 01:38:26.399
That's incredible, and there's that Is that common that they'll

1857
01:38:26.439 --> 01:38:28.039
do that for you or so?

1858
01:38:28.359 --> 01:38:35.000
There are laws regarding case files and releasing it to

1859
01:38:35.079 --> 01:38:38.600
the public. Legally, they have to have a good reason

1860
01:38:38.640 --> 01:38:42.920
to deny you, and sometimes, you know, if it's an

1861
01:38:42.960 --> 01:38:45.520
open and active investigation, they are not obligated to share.

1862
01:38:45.520 --> 01:38:52.119
It's a significantly cold case, or it's a close case,

1863
01:38:52.199 --> 01:38:57.720
they are usually obligated. I'm one of the cases I'm

1864
01:38:57.760 --> 01:39:02.560
really passionate about is uh, the execution of Johnny Frank Garrett,

1865
01:39:03.960 --> 01:39:08.600
because he was I have proof, literal proof that he

1866
01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:12.000
did not commit the crime he was executed for. But

1867
01:39:12.079 --> 01:39:17.199
that's neither here nor there. Texas Amarillo, Texas gave me

1868
01:39:17.239 --> 01:39:21.199
the file the court or not the court. The jail.

1869
01:39:21.560 --> 01:39:28.439
The Criminal Justice Department in Texas gave me all of

1870
01:39:28.479 --> 01:39:32.239
the jail records, and then I wanted the case notes

1871
01:39:32.640 --> 01:39:36.800
for a related case for this thing that I'm working on,

1872
01:39:37.119 --> 01:39:42.399
and Texas told me no. In fact, Texas specifically their

1873
01:39:42.439 --> 01:39:47.520
attorney general told me, now really wow. They said, basically,

1874
01:39:47.760 --> 01:39:57.239
it would be detrimental to the identity of the perpetrator

1875
01:39:57.319 --> 01:39:59.600
in the case that I was looking at if they

1876
01:39:59.600 --> 01:40:05.000
were too give me the information except the guys literally

1877
01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:05.960
in jail for murder.

1878
01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:10.760
Okay, like how much? Yeah? Wow, So I could.

1879
01:40:10.560 --> 01:40:13.800
Cite it if I wanted to, but I they could

1880
01:40:13.840 --> 01:40:15.800
still tell me now and then, in which case I

1881
01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:17.960
would have to sue for the records. I don't know

1882
01:40:18.000 --> 01:40:18.880
if I want to do that.

1883
01:40:20.479 --> 01:40:24.159
So well, but I think that's incredibly fascinating that that's

1884
01:40:24.199 --> 01:40:26.399
the lengths that you go to to get that information,

1885
01:40:26.520 --> 01:40:29.439
because compared to what we do. Oh no, I I

1886
01:40:29.840 --> 01:40:33.560
I went on the Google for stuff on Henry Lee

1887
01:40:33.600 --> 01:40:35.760
Luke and we still like, like the thing is, like,

1888
01:40:35.800 --> 01:40:36.920
I don't do any research, so.

1889
01:40:37.039 --> 01:40:39.960
I know this isn't this isn't me being you know,

1890
01:40:40.279 --> 01:40:43.359
I'll be modest with this, but like like I'm impressed

1891
01:40:43.359 --> 01:40:46.520
with their research. Impressed with you because like we don't

1892
01:40:46.520 --> 01:40:48.359
do very much, but we listen to a lot of

1893
01:40:48.359 --> 01:40:50.920
other shows and it's like and it's like, wow, you

1894
01:40:50.960 --> 01:40:52.880
guys really don't do like well.

1895
01:40:52.880 --> 01:40:54.920
I mean, we you do a lot, but I don't

1896
01:40:54.920 --> 01:40:59.920
do necessarily the primary type of research that Courtney's doing. First,

1897
01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:02.840
I'll get books and stuff, but we still do so.

1898
01:41:02.840 --> 01:41:05.560
Much more than a lot of you know, like Frending,

1899
01:41:05.880 --> 01:41:08.479
you knows, and it's wild, it's wild how little work

1900
01:41:08.520 --> 01:41:08.920
people do.

1901
01:41:09.520 --> 01:41:11.880
It's it's astounding how little work people do. And like

1902
01:41:11.960 --> 01:41:14.920
I don't get I don't get the case files for

1903
01:41:14.960 --> 01:41:15.920
every case I work on.

1904
01:41:16.960 --> 01:41:18.960
But I too, That's what's incredible.

1905
01:41:18.960 --> 01:41:23.039
At least, yeah, I and I do, but not for

1906
01:41:23.159 --> 01:41:27.960
every case. Realistically, it's just not worth the hoops that

1907
01:41:27.960 --> 01:41:29.359
I would have to jump through to get through it.

1908
01:41:29.439 --> 01:41:33.720
Janett's Topama I was super interested in, and I'm only

1909
01:41:33.800 --> 01:41:35.880
an hour away from where she died, so like I

1910
01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:39.000
was going to drive to the police department to try

1911
01:41:39.000 --> 01:41:42.479
and get the file. Luckily, the Prosecutor's office when CHARB

1912
01:41:42.479 --> 01:41:45.159
will give you what we have, which was basically nothing thought,

1913
01:41:46.680 --> 01:41:49.399
but they still give it to me. You know, I

1914
01:41:49.520 --> 01:41:54.159
have like two hundred documents from Texas. Wow. I paid

1915
01:41:54.199 --> 01:41:56.920
a lot of money to get those documents. It's like

1916
01:41:56.920 --> 01:42:01.520
one hundred and seventeen dollars. Wow. But there are other

1917
01:42:01.600 --> 01:42:05.479
times where I've been told no, flat out not gonna happen,

1918
01:42:06.079 --> 01:42:08.439
and I'm it's just kind of like, well, all right,

1919
01:42:08.479 --> 01:42:11.760
I'll find the information another wise. So I read a

1920
01:42:11.800 --> 01:42:14.760
lot of newspapers, I mean, my books.

1921
01:42:15.000 --> 01:42:16.760
I get the microfiche out.

1922
01:42:18.960 --> 01:42:24.800
Yeah, the deepest steps of Google. Lots lots lots of

1923
01:42:24.840 --> 01:42:28.079
time spent on Google. But it always drives me nuts

1924
01:42:28.079 --> 01:42:30.319
that there are other podcasts out there. Like the most

1925
01:42:30.359 --> 01:42:34.359
they'll do is like hit up Wikipedia, like I did that.

1926
01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:37.880
There's been times I've listened to podcasts and I'm like,

1927
01:42:38.000 --> 01:42:40.199
I know that's from Wikipedia because I read that same

1928
01:42:40.399 --> 01:42:42.680
like I read it, but I didn't like copy.

1929
01:42:42.399 --> 01:42:45.159
And paste, like yeah, yeah, Like like we'll we'll open

1930
01:42:45.319 --> 01:42:47.279
up a Wikipedia page on something and be like all right,

1931
01:42:47.279 --> 01:42:48.680
like let's figure out if we want to do this,

1932
01:42:48.720 --> 01:42:50.840
and we'll go through the page together and like and

1933
01:42:51.159 --> 01:42:52.800
you know, talk about it and then we'll go find

1934
01:42:52.840 --> 01:42:54.039
primary sources like.

1935
01:42:54.439 --> 01:42:56.960
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like, like,

1936
01:42:57.039 --> 01:43:00.760
why are we making our entire like not of whatever

1937
01:43:00.800 --> 01:43:03.359
we're talking about based on Wikipedia? Which like what do

1938
01:43:03.399 --> 01:43:06.520
you mean? Like, yes, when I did the case in

1939
01:43:07.359 --> 01:43:12.479
the Academy Maniacs, I was forced to kind of go

1940
01:43:12.560 --> 01:43:17.800
through Wikipedia to find sources because this happened in Russia

1941
01:43:17.880 --> 01:43:19.920
and no one in America really covered it. I'm one

1942
01:43:19.960 --> 01:43:25.000
of the few people in America that have covered this case. Literally,

1943
01:43:25.079 --> 01:43:27.760
I've looked into it. No one's really talked about it,

1944
01:43:29.600 --> 01:43:33.720
so that was hard to do. But like, don't I

1945
01:43:34.199 --> 01:43:38.319
remember just happening across a case I had already done,

1946
01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:40.880
like someone else covered it, and I was just curious

1947
01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:43.520
if they had like new information because it had been

1948
01:43:43.560 --> 01:43:46.199
a while and I'm listening to it and they got

1949
01:43:46.279 --> 01:43:49.199
like the most basic of basic details wrong. I'm like,

1950
01:43:49.199 --> 01:43:50.600
where did you get this information here?

1951
01:43:51.079 --> 01:43:54.520
I hate that because, just like you said, when you're

1952
01:43:54.520 --> 01:43:58.479
doing research, like i'llfer listening to things and then you know,

1953
01:43:58.520 --> 01:44:01.159
you start hearing this once startingting the same story over

1954
01:44:01.199 --> 01:44:03.800
and over and over again. I'm like, okay, this is probably.

1955
01:44:03.600 --> 01:44:05.640
Yeah, the couple like look into and make sure, but

1956
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:07.880
it's like, yeah, this okay. I like when there's something

1957
01:44:07.920 --> 01:44:10.680
that's that's you know, because we do stuff that's debatable,

1958
01:44:10.760 --> 01:44:13.199
Like we do stuff that's that's not you know, and

1959
01:44:13.279 --> 01:44:15.119
so like we'll be like, Okay, this seems like the

1960
01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:18.119
generally agreed upon narrative based on this source, and these

1961
01:44:18.199 --> 01:44:20.159
people propagating this over and over again.

1962
01:44:20.199 --> 01:44:22.079
Okay, like we'll bring it up as this is likely

1963
01:44:22.079 --> 01:44:24.520
what happened. Like I I got that feeling when I

1964
01:44:24.560 --> 01:44:27.560
when I was doing research on audust tool and and

1965
01:44:28.199 --> 01:44:31.439
the podcast or the sources I was calling him otis tool.

1966
01:44:31.479 --> 01:44:34.079
I was like, Okay, you don't know what you're talking about.

1967
01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:37.039
I'm done listening to this, you know, because like even

1968
01:44:37.079 --> 01:44:40.279
just a pronunciation like that, like you don't know obviously,

1969
01:44:40.319 --> 01:44:42.840
so I can't trust anything else you're you're saying, like

1970
01:44:42.840 --> 01:44:43.479
mistakes your friend.

1971
01:44:43.520 --> 01:44:45.319
But it's like, if that's that's clearly if you're talking

1972
01:44:45.319 --> 01:44:47.039
about autist, still that's the main point you're talking about

1973
01:44:47.039 --> 01:44:49.840
because he's a footnote and his in his own history unfortunately,

1974
01:44:49.840 --> 01:44:52.359
well fortunately because he's a shitty person. But like, but

1975
01:44:52.479 --> 01:44:55.840
it's in the name of making Henry Lukes bigger, so unfortunately.

1976
01:44:55.479 --> 01:44:58.119
Sure, But but yeah, basic thing, it's wild, like how

1977
01:44:58.159 --> 01:45:01.359
people can mess up basic things, especially when when you

1978
01:45:01.399 --> 01:45:04.199
have a platform that you know, especially if you're if

1979
01:45:04.239 --> 01:45:06.359
you're somebod who victim rights are important, and you miss

1980
01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:09.359
up even the most basic of information. It's it's very frustrating.

1981
01:45:10.119 --> 01:45:12.000
Yeah, it drives me absolutely up the wall. I'm like,

1982
01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:12.600
what are you doing?

1983
01:45:13.800 --> 01:45:15.199
What are you doing? And I just I feel like

1984
01:45:15.279 --> 01:45:15.640
I don't know.

1985
01:45:15.680 --> 01:45:19.039
We me and Jaya, like we complain often and I

1986
01:45:19.079 --> 01:45:21.479
feel like about just say anything about anything, but like

1987
01:45:21.640 --> 01:45:24.720
especially this, and it's like like for me, like I've

1988
01:45:24.760 --> 01:45:27.000
been there are a lot of ways that I can

1989
01:45:27.079 --> 01:45:28.840
make my life easier and stuff, but I just like

1990
01:45:28.880 --> 01:45:30.640
I have a good system for how I like, I

1991
01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:33.239
I audio edit our episodes, like and I you know,

1992
01:45:33.319 --> 01:45:36.159
I do that, and I've I've done suff with like

1993
01:45:36.279 --> 01:45:37.560
you know, music in the past and things like that,

1994
01:45:37.600 --> 01:45:39.399
and I just like listen even ones that are like

1995
01:45:39.439 --> 01:45:42.800
decent content like like and even middle of the road

1996
01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:44.640
audio quality. I'm like, yeah, I can get behind this,

1997
01:45:44.680 --> 01:45:46.760
but like some but it's this is totally different. This

1998
01:45:46.800 --> 01:45:50.920
is less important. But it's like also shows like it's

1999
01:45:50.960 --> 01:45:52.720
like there will be like big shows where I'm like,

2000
01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:55.800
your audio sounds absolutely dreadful, like just do anything.

2001
01:45:55.840 --> 01:45:58.159
I don't know. Now I'm just complaining, but I've I've

2002
01:45:58.199 --> 01:46:01.560
heard somewhere, you know, they they're trying to be a

2003
01:46:01.600 --> 01:46:04.399
serious podcast and then the editing's terrible exactly, Like it's

2004
01:46:04.399 --> 01:46:05.960
not that hard to hit it yet, you know.

2005
01:46:07.399 --> 01:46:09.439
But it's the same level of like, like if you're

2006
01:46:09.479 --> 01:46:11.680
trying to have a podcast, especially like and we have

2007
01:46:11.680 --> 01:46:13.279
a we have a comedy podcast. We know we're talking

2008
01:46:13.319 --> 01:46:15.520
like ourscilia and it's meant to be. It's it's it's

2009
01:46:15.560 --> 01:46:18.079
not important, but like even that, we're like, well, we're

2010
01:46:18.119 --> 01:46:20.000
not gonna get the details wrong, we're not gonnavictive blame work,

2011
01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:21.479
and we're gonna make sure it sounds okay. And like

2012
01:46:22.000 --> 01:46:25.119
it's just crazy, how how rare that is, you know,

2013
01:46:25.359 --> 01:46:28.239
and Courtney, thank you for doing that, for like being

2014
01:46:28.560 --> 01:46:31.920
somebody whose podcast sounds good and your information is obviously

2015
01:46:32.359 --> 01:46:35.000
not full of thouasies.

2016
01:46:34.439 --> 01:46:37.960
Like thanks for sounding good. Yeah, he said all that

2017
01:46:38.119 --> 01:46:39.399
to say you sound good.

2018
01:46:39.800 --> 01:46:42.359
It was someone tell me and my my podcast didn't

2019
01:46:42.359 --> 01:46:44.479
sound good. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like,

2020
01:46:45.000 --> 01:46:46.399
I think it sounds fine.

2021
01:46:46.680 --> 01:46:50.439
Yeah, you're rude. Yeah all right, So last thing, where

2022
01:46:50.439 --> 01:46:53.560
can where can everybody find you? You said, uh, everywhere?

2023
01:46:53.880 --> 01:46:56.039
I know you said everywhere? What should they search for

2024
01:46:56.520 --> 01:47:01.000
the podcast? Okay? And and where are you where are

2025
01:47:01.039 --> 01:47:05.479
you most active on? Uh? Just yeah, give us give

2026
01:47:05.560 --> 01:47:08.760
us how shows are they use?

2027
01:47:09.880 --> 01:47:12.159
So yeah, you can find a you can find the

2028
01:47:12.199 --> 01:47:14.640
podcast literally anywhere. Just search up the Book of the

2029
01:47:14.680 --> 01:47:18.960
Dead podcast and I typically pop up. I'm really easy

2030
01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:20.840
to find. It's a white logo with an outline of

2031
01:47:20.880 --> 01:47:23.920
a spell and some flowers on it. Pretty simple, not

2032
01:47:24.000 --> 01:47:26.000
a lot going on in the logo, easy to spot

2033
01:47:26.000 --> 01:47:30.199
in the crowd you. In terms of social media, I'm

2034
01:47:30.239 --> 01:47:32.920
most active on Instagram at Book of the Dead pod.

2035
01:47:34.039 --> 01:47:39.680
I'm always on Instagram. I'm perpetually glued to my phone,

2036
01:47:40.279 --> 01:47:42.760
so you know, send me a message, you know I

2037
01:47:43.199 --> 01:47:45.359
will answer, and I will.

2038
01:47:45.560 --> 01:47:47.439
That's how we got That's how we did this episode, Yes,

2039
01:47:47.560 --> 01:47:50.279
she answered, I did so.

2040
01:47:50.640 --> 01:47:53.520
Yeah, That's that's where I'm most active. But you can

2041
01:47:53.640 --> 01:47:58.039
find me like on Facebook. And I did never use

2042
01:47:58.279 --> 01:47:59.560
the the Twitter x.

2043
01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:03.399
I have started to try again and it is a

2044
01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:06.720
cesspool right now. It's so bad.

2045
01:48:07.640 --> 01:48:08.319
I'm on there.

2046
01:48:08.359 --> 01:48:12.039
I don't use it. I don't have and then release

2047
01:48:12.119 --> 01:48:14.000
every week, correct.

2048
01:48:13.560 --> 01:48:21.239
Every week within reason. Sometimes the brain's not doing so hot,

2049
01:48:22.159 --> 01:48:24.359
a mental health break, but for the most part it

2050
01:48:24.439 --> 01:48:27.880
is every Wednesday at midnight Eastern excellent.

2051
01:48:27.960 --> 01:48:30.560
Well, thank you for coming on our show, Curious UH

2052
01:48:31.600 --> 01:48:37.000
as as on task as we possibly could. UH and

2053
01:48:37.079 --> 01:48:40.359
some of your knowledge, especially with religion was invaluable and

2054
01:48:40.399 --> 01:48:43.279
things we don't necessarily we don't usually get on this podcast.

2055
01:48:43.319 --> 01:48:46.520
So I appreciate that. Okay, now you're doing a thing. Okay,

2056
01:48:46.920 --> 01:48:52.439
I was like, whoa, anyway, do I need to wink

2057
01:48:52.479 --> 01:48:55.960
at you every time I'm doing something? Maybe? Okay, you

2058
01:48:55.960 --> 01:48:58.520
can wink at anymore. I should wink at you. You

2059
01:48:58.520 --> 01:48:59.640
don't have to. It doesn't have to be just a

2060
01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:03.680
few you're just do it. Just do you know? Cardy

2061
01:49:03.760 --> 01:49:04.680
doesn't need to be a part of this.

2062
01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:04.960
We can.

2063
01:49:05.680 --> 01:49:11.439
But this has been fun having a witness. No, it's

2064
01:49:11.479 --> 01:49:13.000
this has been This has been a very fun. It's

2065
01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:14.720
been a good episode. Thank you for It wouldn't have

2066
01:49:14.760 --> 01:49:17.479
been nearly as good without you. Topics not No, Thomas

2067
01:49:17.520 --> 01:49:19.479
was fine, is terrible. I didn't like it a good friends,

2068
01:49:19.520 --> 01:49:23.800
bad scenario, terrible beer. So I appreciate you having me.

2069
01:49:24.159 --> 01:49:28.079
It's been wonderful, excellent, best guest host you've ever been

2070
01:49:28.119 --> 01:49:33.359
on that I've entil perfect. Thank you? So all right,

2071
01:49:33.439 --> 01:49:37.079
I am personally for the for this recording signing out,

2072
01:49:39.279 --> 01:49:40.279
You're not even buy your mic