Oct. 7, 2025

Chapter 117: Convergence-The Murders of Gio Messina & Delphine Moore w/ Gregg Owen and Jonathan Dixon

Chapter 117: Convergence-The Murders of Gio Messina & Delphine Moore w/ Gregg Owen and Jonathan Dixon
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Interviews

On a cold night in March of 1976, a young couple was brutally murdered in an apartment in Chicago. The murders were as violent as they were baffling. Who would want to hurt them, and why? At the same time that police were investigating the scene, Gregg Owen was taking the bar exam and would go on to become a prosecutor. 4 years later, Gregg would take the case, determined to put the man guilty of killing the couple behind bars when no one else would. The case was, seemingly, unwinnable: no evidence, no motive, and the only witness was prepared to take the 5th, but, against all odds, he was prepared to do what no other prosecutor would.

Decades later, the story of the Messina/Moore Murders and the trial would be immortalized in the book Convergence-written by Gregg Owen and Jonathan Dixon. They sat down with me today to break down the incredible trial, Gregg's journey from rockstar on stage to performing for a jury, and what it took to bring this story back to life.

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Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.

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In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay

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the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,

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waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This

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is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast

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where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,

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re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath

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the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and

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every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,

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one step closer to justice. Brought to you by Darkast

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Network INDEEP Podcasts with the Twist. Hello, Hello, Welcome to

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the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. Today,

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I have with me two special guests, two of the

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founders of twenty six Street Books, a new publisher focused

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on bringing new approaches to the art of true crime.

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First with me is Greg Alwen, former keyboardist for bands

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like Shady Days, Jericho and Chill Factor, who went from

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stages and hanging out with fellow rock stars to prosecuting

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some of the toughest cases in Chicago. Also with me

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is Jonathan Dixon, a former music critic for The Boston

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Phoenix and author of Beaten, Seared and Sauced. They are

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here to talk about their first book together, Convergence, the

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story of a horrific double murder in March of nineteen

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seventy six, where a young couple Giom Messina and Delphine

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Moore were killed. Against all of the odds stacked against him,

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Greg Owen and his partner Mike Goggin brought a seemingly

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unwinnable case to trial. Thank you both for joining me today.

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I am very excited to have you.

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Thank you for having us here.

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Thank Greg.

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You walked away from your band at a pivotal moment

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in your career to become a lawyer. What brought on

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that change and how did it contribute to shaping you

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into the prosecutor that she would ultimately end up being.

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Well, I mean, I was dedicated to the music. It

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was my life from age fifteen. And what occurred was

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at a certain point our band was ready to go

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on tour with Black Materner Overdrive, and we were on

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our way to do a big album, and I had

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a woman that I really loved, Great pay who I

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was in La and she I found out she was

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having an affair with somebody else who was actually a

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dope theater and it's just I mean, I was, I

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just wasn't strong. It crushed me. I mean I literally

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left the band to go and try to deal with this.

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And then after I got back a couple months mos later,

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I seen Emerson Nake and Palmer, and Keith Emerson was

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a keyboard player, and he was the greatest keyboard player

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I've ever seen. So between that and me's starting to

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question my own talent. And I saw a note on

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the bulletin board that the Cook County State's Attorneys off

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was looking for interns to potentially become prosecutors. And I

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looked at it, I go, well, that's about the opposite

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of what I'm doing, And something inside of me said

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that's probably what you should do. So I called my

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mother I'd paid Paul. I said, could you have your

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friend who does your hair cut my hair tonight? And

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my mother thought it was something wrong with me, what

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are you okay? And I had long airs as I

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was a kid, a little young. My hair was on

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my shoulders and that night I got my hair cut

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and the next day I showed up for this interview

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with suit. My mother bought me a sup from Facy

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Penny and the next day I showed up with this interview.

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The guy goes, we're we're desperate trouble. We were so

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bad that we've had the Supreme Court. And then when

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I come up with a special rule that if you're

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a senior loss and your grades are good enough, you

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can actually go with a supervisor in a government of

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setting and try cases. So I didn't know what that

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really meant, and he says, so when you start Monday.

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I mean I literally went from Wednesday night having long

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hair the Monday having short hair and being in a crown.

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I was still in the band. I left two weeks later. Yeah,

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I transitioned literally overnight, and it was the best thing

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I ever did. I enjoyed every bit of it, and

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what it taught me was, first of all, I'm not

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afraid to talk in front of people. You know, when

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you've been on the stage for ten years as a

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young person, I mean you get over that. You're not

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you don't have the jitters. Now speaking to a jury

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isn't quite the same, but once you get comfortable. I

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never had a problem like being in front of people,

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you know, and speaking, because I learned that as a musician,

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So that that that helped me a lot. And the

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other thing that helped me was this, I grew up

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in a time when there's certain prejudices. But for me

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and my people, we didn't care who anybody was. If

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you're a good drummer, we don't care what color anything.

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Nothing I met zero And so when you're raised in

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that from almost a child, you don't even consider that

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it's not even an issue. So when I started to

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Stay's attorney's office in Chicago, there was there was a

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fair fair amount of prejudice, whatever the word may be.

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I didn't bring that with me. See, I wasn't like that,

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and so was different from me because I didn't approach

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it as this guy's that, or it was like he

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killed somebody, we don't care who he is or what

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he is. We're gonna do what we can to make

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sure he doesn't do it to somebody else. So it

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helped me be more open minded, you know, and to

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not bring some kind of prejudice into the prosecution of anything.

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I never it was never, never even in my brain

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or vocabulary. So between those two things. It helped a lot.

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Actually having been in a band, I can imagine.

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It would just kind of being forced all the time

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to be on stage, you know, putting yourself out there,

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to transitioning to the courtroom where it's the same thing.

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You're putting yourself out there. You have to argue, you

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have to perform for the jury.

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Yes, and it is a performance. By the way, it's

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not an accident when you're out in the courtroom. These

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are not accidents. These are planned strategies done so that

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in our case, a guilty person doesn't go out and

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injure somebody else. That was how I was motivated. It

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wasn't like I want to get this guy. It was

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more that I don't want somebody else to be injured

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or whatever because I didn't do a good enough job

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in what I was doing for. I was motivated for

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the victims and the potential victims in the future.

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Absolutely, And I think that's a really great way to

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look at it is, you know, putting a focus on

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the victims and then potential future victims. So convergence has

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written in the vein of Truman Capodis in Cold Blood,

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which is obviously known for its dramatization. What compelled you

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both to emulate that style, and did you have any

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misgivings about taking some creative license with the genre of

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true crime.

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We were casting around for a little bit to try

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to find the right way to tell the story, to

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try to find the right voice, and we had a

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lot of I wouldn't say false starts. We had a

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lot of experiments, and we actually got pretty far taking

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a completely different approach to telling the story. It just

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wasn't feeling right. And I remember Greg saying, this isn't

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quite not getting it. And you know, I had read

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In Cold Blood a long time ago and Executioner's Song,

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and I had loved all the kind of noir ish,

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you know, black lizard crime stuff with Jim Thompson and

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Raymond Chant, that sort of thing, and I just thought

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there was no reason why the two can you know,

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the can't come together. I also thought that as far

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as kind of I wouldn't say, we didn't fabricate much.

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I didn't know what was going on in someone's head.

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But I'm a human being, they're a human being. I

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could kind of maybe guess a little bit. And Greg

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was able to guide me by talking about different personalities

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and that sort of thing, which made it quite a

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bit easier. And you know, so we had to do

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a little reconstructing there, and you know, obviously we had

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to kind of reconstruct some of the dialogue. But I

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think that that's a pretty common you know, it's a

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pretty common hurdle that true crime writers have to get over.

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But we were also from the writing perspective, I was

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lucky because I had Greg and right there and he

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was able to tell me, you know, okay, yeah, this

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is what I was thinking, and I could guarantee that

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this is what Mike was thinking, and and that made

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my job a lot easier. And we also had the

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court transcripts for the trial portion of the book, and

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we have to cut out a lot of the dead parts,

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but you know, a lot of the transcript is exactly

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what was said in court. And there's a video of

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Greg giving a version of the closing argument, and that

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was pretty much word for word. And also, I mean

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that touches also on the question you just asked about

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the performative aspect of things, because Greg in that video

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he's like got this presence, this bearing, this gravity, and

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you realize, like there is a performative aspect to that

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you're kind of acting, you know, it is a form

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of acting.

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I guess, yeah, No, definitely, it is a form of acting. Greg,

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what was it like kind of seeing like these moments

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in your career brought to life in a different form

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so many years ag after the fact.

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Jonathan captured recaptured well me and what I was able

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to do was the victim's father, Tony. We became very close.

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He became my surrogate father. I mean, we got that

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over for thirty five years. And because of that, when

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I'm talking about what Tony said or what he felt,

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I heard it. I mean, it wasn't we didn't have

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to make that up. I mean he told me what

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it felt like when he walked into the door and

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what he found. And we stayed close until he passed away.

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And then Ted O'Connor was one of the detectives. Will

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Jonathan talked to him personally too. I mean, the man

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who saw the kids. We met with him a few times.

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So it wasn't I we had to make up what

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he said or thought. And the other thing that's important,

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we never once said what Mitchell Wenger was thinking, see,

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because we didn't know that that would be totally fictitious

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if we would have said what he said. Cedric one

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of the characters. I met with him many many times,

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so I expressed what he felt, you know, because that's

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what he said. What we wanted to do, though, is

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to make it not just an narrative, you know, make

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it so that people really felt what it was like,

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what is it like to sit in the prosecution's chair,

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what do they do? And it also at one point

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we turned it Jonathan and his writing turned it like

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you're almost a juror. You're trying to figure out what happened?

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You know, why is this going on? Because from the

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start of the case four years before I tried it

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to the end, the motive was the most unbelievably we

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could not figure it out, That police couldn't figure it out,

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nobody and it just stayed with me, I mean forever.

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I mean it made no sense at all.

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Yeah, I think it was. It's accurate saying that the

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reader's kind of like in the jury, see because it does.

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You are trying to just coming from you who's read

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the book, you can really feel that trying to figure

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out what happened, you know, as the case is being

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laid out before you and reading Convergence, the Messino More

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case seems pretty straight forward. I mean, police had gotten

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the killer really quickly, but then everything falls apart four

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years later. You know, the evidence is disappearing, the witnesses

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are fearing being put on the stand. How did you

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end up taking the case, especially after it moved to

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the Delhi Center, which isn't exactly known for trying high

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stakes cases.

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Well, we didn't have a title for the book at

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the beginning. We didn't know what it was. But as

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I was relating to him things he started catching. He goes, great,

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00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.039
these are unbelievable coincidences. I mean I never thought about it,

225
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:26.879
see because I was it was me. I was in

226
00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.120
the midst of it. So as I'm sharing with him

227
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.919
and we're like, oh my god. Well, the first major

228
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:35.960
coincidence was this. I'm taking the bar exam in March third,

229
00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:39.320
nineteen seventy six, and I went for lunch with other

230
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.639
LUs early for the first half and I heard sirens,

231
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:44.840
a lot of siren and the bar where I took

232
00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:46.600
the bar exam was not too far from where the

233
00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.399
crime scene was, and so later that day I get

234
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.519
a call from my brother and he says to me,

235
00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:55.320
I'm ready to go to La. He says, my friend

236
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.600
got murdered. I go, what friendy with my friend Geo?

237
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:00.600
I go, who's that? He goes, Hee, you probably don't

238
00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.240
know me. You always on tour, and he starts telling me.

239
00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:06.120
I said, and I'd seen a paper in the evening edition.

240
00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.080
The paper be put in a boxes. I walked into

241
00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.360
my house after the exam and it said contractor actress

242
00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.240
found slain. I didn't have any money in my pocket,

243
00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:16.360
so I couldn't buy a copy. But I thought it

244
00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.080
was unusual see that big of a headline, you know,

245
00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:22.120
in a night edition. So as I'm talking to my brother,

246
00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.399
I go, wait a second, where is your friend killed?

247
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.360
He goes into Chicago. Did was he a contract? Didn't

248
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.879
know his father is? I go, my god, I just

249
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:33.000
saw the headline. He goes, yeah, I was. Yeah. I

250
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.320
was going out with his sister. I'm thinking, really, j

251
00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.519
I felt bad for him. I said, I don't know

252
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:40.080
what I can do. He goes, I just want you know,

253
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:42.000
if you were around, I have you go to the

254
00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.240
meat the family. I said, well, I'm leaving for La,

255
00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.440
which I did. Well, then three and a half years later,

256
00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:51.120
I've already tried forty murdered jury trials. I'm very experienced.

257
00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.480
He calls me and he says, he says, could get

258
00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:56.320
could you answer a question for me? Greg? I said,

259
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:58.279
what is it? Jay? He says, he says to me,

260
00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:03.159
why would you office throw out or dismiss a double

261
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:06.120
murder case? I first thing, I said, what are you

262
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:09.679
talking about? That's impossible, that would never happen. He goes,

263
00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.480
all he have is happening. I go, who is this?

264
00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.559
He goes, remember my friend? I go, yeah, I said,

265
00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.919
whatever happened in the case? He goes, nothing, and his

266
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.240
family's being told they're going to dismiss the case because

267
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:23.600
they're missing a bunch of that. But it's what disappeared

268
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.200
from the locker and the only witness is taking the

269
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.080
fifth He won't testify because there was drugs involved. And

270
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:32.559
he said, so they're going to throw it out. I go,

271
00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.039
where's the case? He goes, well, I know it's not

272
00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:36.279
where you are. I go, what it's got to be

273
00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.720
where I am twenty six in california's a criminal corporal

274
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.679
and it's a double murder. He goes, no, it's downtown.

275
00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:45.120
I go, come on, it can't be downtown. So I said,

276
00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:47.840
let me check. So I pay some calls and I

277
00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:49.840
called one of my big bosses. He says, yeah, the

278
00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:51.639
case is the Daily said, I go, how did he

279
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.399
get there? Well, we made bond. I go, how did

280
00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:57.440
he have a bond and a double murder case? People

281
00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.519
are super rich and somebody, some guys gave him a

282
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.840
real little bond. I'm thinking, but it's in the Daily Center.

283
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:04.039
Now.

284
00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:07.279
The thing about the Daily Center is downtown Chicago. Twenty

285
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.679
sixth Street is pretty far west. It's not in the

286
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.320
heart of the city at all, because that's why, you

287
00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:15.159
know why the criminals come mingling with the citizens and

288
00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.120
they have a double murderer on bond walking around in

289
00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.000
the heart of the city where all the businesses was

290
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:24.799
unheard of them. So I knew something was going on.

291
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.360
It wasn't good. And I find out where the case

292
00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:30.360
is assigned and who the judge was. And remember at

293
00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:33.720
that time, Chicago had the highest rate of corruption, probably

294
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.879
in America for judicial corruption, and we all knew that.

295
00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.440
We knew what was going on around us. So I

296
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.120
go down there and I asked somebody, and they go, yeah, well,

297
00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:45.559
the case is over here, could I see the file?

298
00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:47.440
And the guy couldn't find it. So he gets under

299
00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:50.399
a desk and he found the file under a desk.

300
00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.519
They didn't want to try the case because they knew

301
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:54.960
it was going to be a bench drought. It was

302
00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:57.679
going to be not guilty. So I'm looking at the

303
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:00.559
file im and it got me upset. Get this guy

304
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:02.600
in about the money he has. I mean, it was

305
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:05.559
really bothering me. Like the people I prosecuted have no hope,

306
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.399
no money, and this guy's rich and he murdered two

307
00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:11.519
of his friends and there's no motive. So I called

308
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.000
my partner. I said, Mike, we're probably going to lose

309
00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.120
this case because there's nothing. I mean, I don't know

310
00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.559
if it witness could testify, I said, so, which would

311
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.240
be willing to do with me? At least my brother

312
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.080
knows that people and the family's upset. You know, maybe

313
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.799
we can, you know, at least give him a third day.

314
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:29.720
They goes wring a lot too, but I will if

315
00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:31.919
he asked me, So I said, okay. So I called

316
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.200
another boss. I said, can I take this case caught

317
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.320
to twenty sixth Street? Sure, if you can get the

318
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:38.559
cheap judge to transfer it. Well, I was able to

319
00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:40.879
do that, so now it was moved there to the

320
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.559
court and where you'd get a jury trail. So that's

321
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.039
how the whole thing started. My brother, it was his friend,

322
00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.200
which I've always felt really highly about him in that respected.

323
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.720
He thought so much of a friend that he actually

324
00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:57.159
went out of his way, you know. My brother's ESTATESID prosecutor,

325
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.320
and he called me and then I found that case

326
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.679
and able to get a transferred and we took it

327
00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.799
and we tried it. Nobody wanted the case. Nobody I

328
00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.279
was told when I went to the Daily Center. One

329
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:08.559
of the prosecutors said, Greg, if I was you, I

330
00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.799
wouldn't touch that case with a ten football people have

331
00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.680
been paid off, but it's disappeared. The Windesses is taken

332
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.519
the fifth there is no case. Actually motivated me more

333
00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:22.359
when I saw this guy that did it, I said, no,

334
00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:24.400
I'm not gonna let that happen. And I personally it

335
00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.400
was just it was the thing that I felt, I'm

336
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.839
not going to let somebody walk away that butchered two people.

337
00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.160
No way, at least we're going to try to do something.

338
00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:34.119
So we did.

339
00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.720
That's amazing. The draw and the urge to gadgus. This

340
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.119
for Geo and Delphine like just especially because you know

341
00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:46.640
your your brother couldn't let it go either, which is

342
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:48.799
just as amazing because a lot of times that is

343
00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.920
how results happen, is someone whether it's a friend or

344
00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:55.160
a family member, can't let it go. And they were

345
00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:58.079
lucky enough that a couple of people couldn't let it go.

346
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.880
In my part of the he said, yes, I mean,

347
00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:03.960
this was a case that was so bad. It was

348
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.240
like the initial viewing this case, there is no case.

349
00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.200
We had evidence in a locker that disappeared. How does

350
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.880
that happen? That doesn't happen, But it did. We had

351
00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.160
one person who was there and it was a sort

352
00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:20.079
of a a drug deal going down, you know, like

353
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:23.720
that type of situation, and he didn't want to be involved,

354
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.240
but he was with this part of it, and he

355
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.240
did not want to take the stand. He thought, for sure,

356
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:30.480
winn Or Louis, we're going to charge him with the

357
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:33.640
drugs too, And I had to convince him that we wouldn't,

358
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:37.079
and that was tough. So there was no case, but

359
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.079
I didn't care. We didn't care, my partner. Finally he

360
00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.200
got into it. We said, well, I don't care. And

361
00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:45.559
the lawyers we went against for some of the best lawyers,

362
00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.440
I mean the best anywhere they've tried federal case that

363
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.519
they represented Jimmy Hoffett one time. I mean, these are

364
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.039
high powered, big money lawyers. And here's me and my partner.

365
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.160
I was thirty, he was thirty one. We're just young guys,

366
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.440
you know. And then underestimated us for sure. The defensorteys

367
00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:07.119
underestimated our ability. See, because they don't realize when you

368
00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:09.160
work in the environment like that. I had tried almost

369
00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:12.519
forty jury trials in three years. It's every week. I mean,

370
00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.839
you're never not on trial. It was so there was

371
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:19.319
so much crime, and so people don't understand that when

372
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:21.519
you do that that much. I mean, it's it's it's

373
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.000
a challenge, but it's something you know how to do.

374
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.519
And so we did it and we got them to testify.

375
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.519
One of the things that really made the the case

376
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:38.680
especially unusual was the corruption involved. And you know, everyone

377
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.640
knows there was. You know, Chicago seems to have raised

378
00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:46.799
corruption to a fine heart. I kept thinking about all

379
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:51.160
the evidence disappearing and this guy getting released on bond,

380
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.680
and you knew people were getting bribed, You knew people

381
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.799
were getting paid off, and the idea that for a

382
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:03.079
few thousand bucks, because I'm sure millions were not changing hands.

383
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.480
I'm sure it was relatively penny anti stuff. For a

384
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.880
few thousand bucks, they were willing to make these two

385
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.839
murdered kids just totally inconsequential, and the grief of the

386
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:20.160
family totally in consequence. And that kind of got it

387
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:21.440
took send to me too.

388
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.839
And accordinately. There's one other twist. When I went down

389
00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.000
that at Daily Center to find this case, one of

390
00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.119
the prosecutors said to me, oh, just a couple of

391
00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.839
drug added kids. I came from a rock and roll band. Okay,

392
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:36.440
I'm not saying I was an angel. I was on

393
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.839
tour for years. I know what it's like. Okay, I've

394
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.680
done things. And for me to think they're gonna walk

395
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:44.839
away from murder because some guys kids were having a

396
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.400
party doing cocaine or whatever, and that's that's your your

397
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:51.240
penalty is we're not going to do anything. Because see,

398
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.400
it just struck me so bad because I came in

399
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:55.480
as a musician. I knew all about it. I'd done

400
00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:59.119
it myself, and to think that somebody would just dismiss

401
00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.400
the thing because or there are a couple of drug addicts,

402
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.759
that's all I said, Oh, there's a couple of druggies.

403
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.599
I mean, I'm thinking, are these people are nuts? See?

404
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:09.359
People were different then, you know. When I came from

405
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.720
a different background, it was bad. It bothered me a lot.

406
00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:16.039
No, absolutely, that would bother me as well, because what

407
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.839
is and I've said this before in other cases I've

408
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.759
covered what does what they're doing in the moment's leading

409
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.920
up before their murder have to do with anything borrowing

410
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.799
them attacking someone? What does it have to do with

411
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.559
who cares that they were doing drugs? That has nothing

412
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:31.920
to do with the fact that they were murdered?

413
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:35.720
Nothing said we said in an argument partner. I think

414
00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:38.680
he says, well, first of all, folks, doing cocaine is

415
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:42.119
not a capital offense in this state. So is thatct me?

416
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:45.000
Are we trying to say that because of that they

417
00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:46.640
deserve to be murdered? Right?

418
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:47.519
This guy right here?

419
00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:49.880
No, see what I mean? It was It was just

420
00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:51.759
I don't know if it's any different thing, but they

421
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:53.839
were a lot different then people. That was something that

422
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.519
people viewed, you know, like, oh, you were doing drugs,

423
00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:01.559
so what's it's not a death penal offense. And we

424
00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:04.000
had to com back that too. But you see, the

425
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:08.519
thing that was tricky was the defense did not really

426
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.759
dig deep on the cocaine part because they dirtied him

427
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.640
up too then, see, so they didn't want to harp

428
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.319
on the cocaine or depressed it. But they didn't because

429
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:20.319
it made him look like, well, maybe he was just

430
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.119
another druggy too, you know so, and then everybody wouldn't

431
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:26.119
care about anybody. So it didn't didn't come up too

432
00:22:26.200 --> 00:22:29.440
much in the case, not that much. As much as

433
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:31.480
important as it was in the beginning, it wasn't that

434
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:32.039
big idea.

435
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.200
Speaking of witnesses that you had kind of had to

436
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.640
track down. You really jumped through hoops to get these

437
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.480
people to testify. You know what kind of struggles did

438
00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:43.440
you face in doing that?

439
00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:46.680
First of all, set these people were all wealthy. Okay,

440
00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.839
these are rich kids. I mean the eyewitness was driving

441
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:53.559
a poorche He lived in a big house in a

442
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.319
real routchy neighborhood and it's northern northern Illinois, and so

443
00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:01.000
he had no interest, see, and he was really fearful

444
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.119
that he was going to get charged back. We went

445
00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.519
meeting after meeting, and another thing that came into this

446
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.720
case was this. I finally decided, I'm just going to

447
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.759
meet the guy at a social level. Let's just see

448
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.039
maybe we can you know, I can probably be his friend.

449
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:17.279
So we met at a disco called Faces. He was

450
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:20.240
a member. So we go in there and he's meeting

451
00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:22.599
talking to everybody dancing. I'm just sort of sitting there

452
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.119
and at one point he says to me, he just

453
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.319
don't seem like the kind of guy to be a prosecutor.

454
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:29.599
I go, what's that I mean? He goes, I don't know,

455
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:31.599
he just doesn't seem right. He goes, how did you

456
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:33.519
ever get into this? I go, what's a long story?

457
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:35.400
I wanted to leave it at dad. He goes, oh,

458
00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:38.720
we got all night. I go fine, I was in

459
00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:42.319
a band and this then that happened and he goes,

460
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.559
what band? And I told him. He goes, oh my god,

461
00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:47.480
I've seen you a million times a Rush Street in club.

462
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.839
And after he said that, his attitude change, just like

463
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.440
all of a sudden. He believed me that I really

464
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.960
wouldn't go after him for the cocaine, because he just

465
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:57.839
assumed what you probably did what I'm doing your life.

466
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.680
Whether I did or not, I feel that the tension

467
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.240
change was automatically. It was instantaneously, and at the time

468
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.119
it was happening, I didn't appreciate it, you know, I

469
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.920
didn't really, But then after I thought about it, I go, oh,

470
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:14.079
my god, the guy thinks I'm cool quotes because I

471
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:16.160
was in a band and he saw my band a

472
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.519
lot of times. And then he had a girlfriend and

473
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.319
he had at the time of the murders that I

474
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:24.759
wanted to use and she didn't want to testify period.

475
00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:27.359
So I went and met her and we were talking

476
00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:31.680
in a small dountintown and I said to her, I said, oh,

477
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:34.240
you live in Newberry Plaza. That's a nice place. She goes,

478
00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:36.200
I said, She goes, well, you know you know of it.

479
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:37.640
I said, yeah, it's real nice. I've been there a

480
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:39.519
few times. She goes, what do you mean you've been there?

481
00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:41.519
I said, well, I spent the night there a couple

482
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.799
of times. A few times. She goes, what what do

483
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:47.000
you mean. I said, well, you know, I was working downtown.

484
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:49.319
He got late at night and I didn't want to

485
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:51.000
have to drive all the way home. She goes, are

486
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.920
you were you a bartender. I said, no, Well, what

487
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:55.640
did you do downtown late at night? I said, I

488
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.160
was a musician. I was in a band. What band?

489
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:02.200
Same thing. It was almost, oh my god, I saw

490
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.599
you with play at Mother's at the Gap. She's narts

491
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.039
name in all these clubs, and then she changed and

492
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:09.799
then all of a sudden, she's like this, maybe we

493
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:13.799
could go out for dinner after this. I'm like, sure,

494
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:15.319
that's what we're going to do, you know what I mean?

495
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:17.359
You know, And she was a very attractive young woman,

496
00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:21.079
and she changed her attitude too, so it was really amazing.

497
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.400
And I when I was doing it, I wasn't on purpose.

498
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.039
I didn't mean to say those things. It was just

499
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.960
the conversation. I was trying to be nice. The oh,

500
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.480
Newbery's a nice place. You know, how long have you

501
00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:34.039
been there? She would you know it? I said, well,

502
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.400
I've been there, you know, what do you mean you've

503
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:38.680
been there? You know? That was the conversation. So when

504
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:40.960
I thought back on it, when I'm talking to Jonathan

505
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.519
when relating some of these things, that's what it really

506
00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:48.200
struck me more than ever. It's like, yeah, yeah, that's

507
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.000
that's part of the concept of convergence, how things converge

508
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:54.440
to end up in this case, I mean.

509
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.559
Jumping through hoops. I mean, in one of my favorite

510
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:02.240
sections of the the book, not to tap myself on

511
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:06.559
the back to, but all you like, Craig chartered a

512
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:11.759
plant and fluted, you know, to Tennessee. And that's that's

513
00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:15.240
going out of your way. I mean, that's that's jumping

514
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.839
through a couple of hoops. And I mean that's that

515
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.559
does show a certain dedication to winning that case to

516
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.880
and it is a huge hoop to have to jump through.

517
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:29.599
When I first talked to him, he would be telling

518
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:33.680
me about all these coincidences, the things he did to

519
00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.279
you know, prepare for the trials, and and people he

520
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.680
met and things that fell into place. And the first

521
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.200
time I talked to him, I remember I hung up

522
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.960
and I walked into the living room and my wife said,

523
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:50.839
how did it go? And I said, that guy is

524
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.720
out of his mind? But I thought that he was

525
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.200
just I thought he was just delusional. And then I

526
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:02.000
just started looking stuff up and I was able to

527
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:06.079
corroborate like everything he said, and that I found one

528
00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.880
thing where it was like, nah, this is different, and

529
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.279
then I double checked that and it turned out the

530
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:13.400
source that I had been looking at was wrong and

531
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:14.839
Greg was actually correct.

532
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.640
I couldn't believe that this was a real story.

533
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.960
I mean, it had so many that I guess that's

534
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.880
another reason why we chose to tell it the way

535
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.559
we did, because it seemed like a plot that someone

536
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.559
would have to make up in order for it to

537
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:30.000
be real.

538
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:32.519
It is a little bit stranger than fiction.

539
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:37.119
Well, as we were writing, Greg would every conversation, I

540
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:39.240
would have to sit there with a notebook because he

541
00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:47.039
would remember some detail that he hadn't mentioned before and

542
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.440
I would have to I would have to write that down.

543
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:52.279
And a lot of times, you know, there were things

544
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:55.200
where I'd say, like how did you not mention this?

545
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.440
Like how how could you not have have told me

546
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.160
this like a couple months to go? And you know,

547
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.279
so I'd have to go back and kind of weave

548
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:06.000
that in. But they just kept coming. It was really

549
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:09.720
fun in that respect, like the surprise every time.

550
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.759
The process of writing it together seems like it was

551
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.599
very interesting because I mean, you're you're going through an

552
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.839
old case and you're you're dealing with the dark case,

553
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.599
but then you're weaving in all of these moments that

554
00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:28.480
are borderline extraordinary, like chartering a plane to Tennessee and

555
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.279
things like that. What was it like navigating the challenges

556
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.319
of recreating a crime.

557
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:38.480
It was a hard book to write because I did,

558
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:40.839
you know, there was a lot to reconstruct. There were

559
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.759
a lot of details to kind of of weaves together.

560
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.359
There were, you know, things we had to kind of

561
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.599
compress it, and with any kind of look back at something,

562
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:54.000
there are things that you have to leave out. And

563
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.440
you know, there were portions of the book that we

564
00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.720
took out after we had prefread it and put it

565
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:03.519
in get form, and you know, just for efficiency's sake.

566
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.960
But you know, the basic process is Greg would tell

567
00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.799
me the story. I would take frantic notes. I would

568
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.079
write up what he said, give it to him, and

569
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:18.440
then he'd call back and he'd expand on that or say,

570
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.960
none of this is quite how it felt at the day,

571
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.920
you know, And it was it was a real collaboration

572
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.839
that way, like a literal back and forth, and it

573
00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:32.559
was sometimes it was slow going. Sometimes like the Tennessee

574
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:37.960
part just really wrote itself almost And that was kind

575
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:42.440
of the collaborative process. Like I had always thought of

576
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:46.599
of working with someone as the two of you sitting

577
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.759
at a table and kind of of typing it together.

578
00:29:50.559 --> 00:29:53.559
And you know, as I had been writing earlier in life,

579
00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:56.400
I realized that wasn't quite the way it happened. But

580
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.640
with Greg it almost was, because he was on the

581
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.400
phone with me so much, and we were going over

582
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:05.839
word by words, so many of the sentences a paragraph

583
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:07.519
by paragraph in different scenes.

584
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:11.880
Yeah, what else would happen would be this. I'd be

585
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.160
driving and something I remember, Oh yeah, remember that, and

586
00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.160
then I called Ted O'Connor the copper or somebody else.

587
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.359
So I take my phone, I do a voice memo.

588
00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.000
So I started sending job with a lot of voice

589
00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.960
memos at all hours of the day. Yes, and so

590
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:28.599
he listened. He could actually listen to my tone because

591
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:30.640
I would you know, I'd say it the way it was,

592
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:32.880
you know, the way I felt, and that I have

593
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.160
tons of these voice memos, I said to themn and

594
00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.480
he'd get them all hours of the day.

595
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.799
Honestly, No, it would be like two in the morning

596
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:42.119
and I would have woken up because I'd heard this

597
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:47.079
little ding ding ding from the phone. So I learned

598
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.240
I actually should probably shut the phone off at night.

599
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:51.960
But I have all the voice memos too, and there's

600
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.359
there are a lot of them, but I mean from

601
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:55.559
those voice memos.

602
00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:58.319
A good chunk of the book came from those.

603
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:04.480
When you were working on the trial, your law professor

604
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:08.359
was working for the defense, and he had told you,

605
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:10.519
essentially that you'd never make it as a lawyer. He

606
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:15.119
gave you a c What was it like navigating that,

607
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:19.119
you know, working against someone that didn't believe in you.

608
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:23.279
He didn't at first, he didn't realize I was me. See,

609
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:26.960
he was my professor. He thought trial technique. And I

610
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.400
took his class because everybody said, oh, great, take that class.

611
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:31.240
The guy gives a beat. That's the worst worst. Oh

612
00:31:31.319 --> 00:31:33.400
I said, oh that sounds like me, you know. And

613
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.720
I had here my hair was maybe longer than yours. Okay,

614
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:38.759
so I've taken a class. I thought I did good,

615
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:41.039
you know, and let's say class he tells me, I'm

616
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.720
gonna give you some good advice. He got the lowest

617
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:45.359
rate of ever given. And you don't have what you do,

618
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.279
not have what it takes to be a trial attorney.

619
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:48.799
If you're going to go, if you're actually going to

620
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:50.640
be a lawyer, you need to get into somewhere you

621
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.160
just stay in an office. You know, you're you're not

622
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.640
the type. And I know it didn't really crush me

623
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.119
too much, sort of because I was still in the band,

624
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.000
you know, I was still thinking and that was my future.

625
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.839
So here we are seven eight years later. He's the

626
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.119
lead attorney for this guy. There was a witness we called,

627
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.720
and the witness had gone to the same law school

628
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.599
as me, and it was for some reason. The witness

629
00:32:14.599 --> 00:32:18.160
made some statement, yeah, he was my teacher, and then

630
00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.319
the guy looked at me and then he hit him.

631
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.559
I was a student too. He put it together and

632
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:28.200
I could feel it so many cases all over. The

633
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:30.799
jury came back in two hours, guilty on both towns.

634
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.599
I walked by him, I said, real cadsu and I go, hey,

635
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:36.720
I still call him mister Magotson, you know, because he

636
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.200
was my teacher. I said. He gave me a C minus.

637
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:41.960
Oh not bad for se min and a student. And

638
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.480
it's that moment. It felt good, just for that fleeting second,

639
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.960
you know, because the way he talked to me, like

640
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.720
I mean, it just was very demoralizing. And here we

641
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.480
took him down hard and he deserved to be. It's

642
00:32:54.519 --> 00:33:01.000
a lot client did anyway, that must have been very.

643
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.839
I was a very probably a satisfying moment for you.

644
00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:05.000
E columnists for the Sun Times over I didn't say

645
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:07.720
it loud, but she was sitting close. She overheard the

646
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:09.960
next day in the paper it was, you know, Greig

647
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:13.079
Olwen beat his lab professor in this and that. So

648
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.880
it was you know, for a second, it felt good.

649
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.839
We all need those little moments sometimes, yes we do.

650
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:23.000
There's a lot of other people mentioned in the book.

651
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:26.200
You know, Bill Kunkle who prosecuted John Wayne Gacy's case,

652
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:30.480
your mentor Tom Breen, Terry Haik who went undercover for

653
00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.440
the FBI. You know, all of these people are interwoven

654
00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:37.480
in this story throughout the different parts of it. You know,

655
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:41.839
what was it like kind of writing about these people,

656
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.240
are having these having these people you knew so well

657
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.640
being written about, and like kind of rebringing them to

658
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.319
life in a different way after knowing them so well

659
00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:51.720
and working with them so closely.

660
00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.279
Jonathan't understands because Bill Kunka was still alive when we

661
00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.920
started the book, Terry Haik still is. Teddy O'Connor was

662
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.160
so around when we started the book, so we were

663
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:06.519
able to really speak to them. See My whole goal

664
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:10.000
here was to make Jonason truly believe everything I was

665
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:13.119
telling him was one hundred percent true. That was important

666
00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.719
to me, and he knows that. So I would constantly

667
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:17.599
want to verify. I say, Okay, talk to this guy,

668
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:21.159
talk to this person, because it's such an unusual story

669
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:25.039
that I wanted to be certain that he understood it.

670
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.559
So he spoke to most of those people himself, just

671
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:31.039
because I wanted him to understand that this was real.

672
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.920
Obviously, I didn't get to talk to Bill Counkle. You know,

673
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.719
I know you were close to him, so I and

674
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.159
you told me a lot about what kind of personality

675
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.400
he was, and when you would kind of say like oh,

676
00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:46.679
and then Bill said this to me, I was able

677
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:48.719
to kind of like get a sense of how he

678
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:52.079
might have talked. And then also he was a talking

679
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:56.679
head on the Hulu John Wayne Gacy documentary. He was

680
00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:02.119
fairly frequently featured in that, and I know, and when

681
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:05.679
I talked to Ted O'Connor, you know, I took everything

682
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.000
he said. Most of what he told me wound up

683
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:11.519
going into the story. I don't think we got a

684
00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:16.559
chance to have him see it before he passed away.

685
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:23.000
But I know Tom Breen read his part and didn't

686
00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:26.960
seem to have any issue with it. Terry Haik read

687
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:30.519
his part, and at some point I'm hoping I get

688
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.719
to meet Terry hak But you know, I did meet

689
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.079
Tom Breen on a trip to Chicago, and.

690
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.000
He basically said, yeah, this is pretty accurate. This is

691
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:40.880
the way it was.

692
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.280
Yeah. I mean he taught me. Tom was the one

693
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.480
that helped me become what I did become as lawyer.

694
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.599
He was literally my teacher in a way. My gagin

695
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:54.239
shape my career too after, but Tom Breen was one

696
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:55.920
that gave me the tools, I would say.

697
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:59.519
And I did get to talk to Mike's brother, yeap, Jack,

698
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:03.280
and I was asking him all kinds of questions like

699
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:05.559
what kind of music did Mike like what? You know,

700
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.480
like really mundane stuff, and he was I think he

701
00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:11.400
was like, why the hell are you asking me this?

702
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.760
But he, you know, he was gay. He went along

703
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:16.960
with it. And you know, I think, Greg, you told me.

704
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:21.559
I think that both Jack and Mike's wife were both

705
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.239
like yeah this or his daughter was it. We're like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

706
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.360
this really captures you know what, you know what my

707
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:29.119
dad was like.

708
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.800
I mean his daughter. His children are close with me,

709
00:36:33.480 --> 00:36:35.280
so I dote it back. I said, I want you

710
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.519
to tell me what was your dad's favorite beer? What

711
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:39.719
was your dad's because I remember most of it, but

712
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:43.199
I wanted to remember it his wife too, I mean everything.

713
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.639
I wanted to make sure because I knew him very well,

714
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.000
but I wanted to capture some of the essence of

715
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.440
how other people felt about him. For Jonathan say, I mean,

716
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.440
he was a huge part of my life. Mike was

717
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.239
I mean just like he was like a brother, no

718
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:02.119
question about it. So we never lost a case together either. Never.

719
00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:05.360
I think we tried like thirty seven thirty eight murder

720
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:08.280
jury trolls and it was just because we were so different,

721
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.920
but we were so close. You know. It was an experience,

722
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:14.360
you know, you can't forget. It was so memorable, and

723
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.199
we were so pro victims, both of us. We both

724
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.400
had that same attitude, how dare you do this to

725
00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.239
these people? And so we were insulted. I mean, it's

726
00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:25.800
weird to say, but when defense attorneys to get up

727
00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:27.280
there and try to get somebody off, it'd be like,

728
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.440
are you serious? This guy's all who But that's their job,

729
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:34.039
you know, Okay, But we took it very serious, I

730
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.079
mean extremely serious. And we were young, you know, and

731
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:39.199
we're dealing with some pretty bad stuff at a very

732
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:44.079
young age. The thing Courtney is the victims' families. Oh

733
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:46.880
my god. I mean, I'm twenty six years old and

734
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.400
I'm talking to some mom and dad whose kid got

735
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:53.000
brutally murdered, and I'm like, and I'm feeling how bad

736
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.840
they feel. I didn't I had no children then, but

737
00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.159
it just, I mean, it was something that you really

738
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:01.800
had to be able to handle, you know, because it

739
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.840
was it was touching, you know, and it hurt, and

740
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.760
you'd have to put somebody in the witness stand. What

741
00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.679
are their parents that they call them a life and

742
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.320
death witness. They'd have to because you'd have to prove

743
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:14.960
the person who was murdered was alive and that then

744
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.039
they and of course they were dead, so you'd have

745
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.280
to call a family member and that was hard. Boy.

746
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:21.199
They'd have to get up there and say, is this

747
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:23.519
a picture of your son? You know? And yes it is,

748
00:38:23.559 --> 00:38:25.679
and then and then when's the next time we saw

749
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.840
your son? He was in the moor? You know, I

750
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:32.320
can't even fathom that. I mean, as a parent to

751
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.440
this day, I mean, it's the last thing on earth

752
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.239
I can I ever understand how the family members are

753
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.559
a victim, and I know this family, they still hurt

754
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:45.599
deeply because of this, very deeply. His sisters, yes, very

755
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:48.400
very much so Mike. Mike and I were different, but

756
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.920
we were alike. We both had heart for the victims,

757
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:55.079
really strong heart. So it made it easier for us

758
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:57.440
because we went after these people like and once we

759
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:01.559
were committed, and once we were convinced beyond any doubt,

760
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:05.280
not reasonable, any doubt on earth, the person was guilty,

761
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.639
we did everything we could to make sure that he

762
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:09.320
paid for what he did to these people.

763
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.039
And I think having that sense of heart makes a

764
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.239
profound difference between like you as a prosecutor and other

765
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:19.239
prosecutors that maybe thinking of it as just like this

766
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:20.639
is my job, this is what I have to do,

767
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.960
as opposed to this is but this is why I'm

768
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:23.400
doing it.

769
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:26.199
It was a mission for me. It wasn't just a job.

770
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.840
It was like I'm in a position. I mean, I

771
00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:30.920
didn't serve in the military. My family's been in the

772
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:33.960
militarations ever forever. I didn't, so I always felt like

773
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.440
I was doing my duty to my people. The people,

774
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:40.000
you know, by actually representing them in this horrible situation.

775
00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:43.400
So it made me feel like I had done something

776
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:46.760
positive for my fellow man. I mean, I know it

777
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.239
may sounds corny, but that's really how I felt.

778
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:53.559
There are some people for whom the law is you know,

779
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:58.400
a job and you know, just career, and other people

780
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.199
it's like a vocation. And and the people that we

781
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:04.880
kind of talked about in the book, you know, whether

782
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:07.360
it was Ted O'Connor or Greg or Mike Goggin or

783
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.280
Tom Breen, it was a lot more than a job.

784
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.039
It was like a you know, a vocation or a calling,

785
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:17.119
or it was something that really maddiced, like, you know,

786
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:20.679
to put it in dramatic terms, like their soul was

787
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:23.280
on the line when they're trying a case.

788
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.000
They cared, They really cared, and that was the key.

789
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:31.159
They cared about people. And not everybody was that way. Okay,

790
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:32.800
not everybody was that way.

791
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:36.880
I wanted to make a book that was that way too.

792
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.679
Like I think back before my son was born, I

793
00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:45.199
stumbled on that TV shows Sons of Anarchy. I got

794
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:48.840
wrapped up, and before my son was born, I'd be

795
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:52.079
watching it. I'd be like, yeah, he hit him again

796
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:55.440
with that bat. You know, when my son came along,

797
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:59.000
all of a sudden, I was just completely unable to

798
00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:03.639
kind of stomach watching the more graphic stuff on that show,

799
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.159
and you know, in a lot of crime shows in general.

800
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:10.760
No more SVU after my son was born. And then

801
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.920
right around the time I started writing Convergence, I found

802
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:20.119
the TV show The Killing and I did wind up

803
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:25.239
watching the first two seasons, I think three times as

804
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:27.199
I was writing the book, because one of the things

805
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:30.320
that really impressed me about it was, in one sense,

806
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:33.079
it was kind of a seat of your you know,

807
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.639
you're on the edge of your seat legal thriller and

808
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:40.280
then on the detective thriller I'm in the TV show,

809
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:44.280
and then the other half of the plotline deals with

810
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:48.079
the family and how their lives were just absolutely wrecked

811
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:53.840
and shattered. And I really liked the way those two

812
00:41:53.960 --> 00:41:56.119
work together, and I really wanted to kind of get

813
00:41:56.159 --> 00:42:01.480
that that sort of empathy into convert Jones, and it

814
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:05.079
was something I really tried to do. And I know

815
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:08.679
it was something I don't think that we talked about

816
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:10.239
at ton I think it was something that Greg and

817
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:13.880
I both just kind of instinctively understood we're going to

818
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:15.679
try to get yep.

819
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.400
And I do think it's evident in the book you

820
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:23.519
can definitely feel that that empathy, especially in the scenes

821
00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:28.440
with Tony just very clearly being so grief stricken even

822
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:32.960
years later, just you know, trying to deal with the

823
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.960
thought of the trial and what the outcome of that

824
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.440
may have been. Speaking of the trial, Greg, when you

825
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:43.920
got that verdict in you know, what did that mean

826
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.400
to you? To get the verdict of guilty.

827
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:52.519
It was probably the most satisfying decision I'd ever heard

828
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.320
in my life about anything, because justice was served. These

829
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.119
people were so arrogant. This defended came to the court in

830
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:03.920
the limbo every single day, okay, and every day I

831
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:07.039
would see that. When I would, it would just frost me.

832
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.000
And the defense attorney's treated Mike and I like we

833
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.880
were dirt, Like we're just some stupid kids, you know.

834
00:43:13.480 --> 00:43:16.239
And I didn't take it personal that way. It was

835
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.599
just the whole picture, the way they treated us, the

836
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.639
way he acted. We'd take a break and his mom

837
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:24.840
and dadd had come and hug him, and I'd see,

838
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.079
you know, Tony's sitting there and there was nobody to

839
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:30.079
hug you know there was nobody for him to hug,

840
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:32.960
and we can't let this guy go. And I remember

841
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:36.320
we were sitting there when the jury came back and

842
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.159
they handed the Verdi form that a clurk or to

843
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:41.679
the bailip and the judge read that. It took that

844
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:43.960
verdie for him. And we knew the judge, and we knew.

845
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:45.920
I never sat through a not guilty, So I'm not

846
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:47.719
trying to bragg but I didn't. But I knew what

847
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:51.199
his history was, his judge, So when he took his

848
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:53.679
pen and he started counting names, we knew it was

849
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:56.400
guilty before he read it, because that man, he was

850
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:00.679
making sure there were twelve people they assigned. He started

851
00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:03.320
that first one. I said to mic, I said, we

852
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:05.840
got the son of a bitch, Mike, we got him.

853
00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:08.760
And I felt so, I mean, I can feel it

854
00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:10.920
right now. I can feel exactly what I felt. My

855
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:14.599
body just went went up and down, like oh man.

856
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:18.920
And it wasn't because I won. Had nothing to do

857
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.199
with me winning. It was the fact that you're going

858
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.920
down for what you did. That's what mattered to me.

859
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:26.599
And those people in the back that have been just

860
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:30.280
dying over this for four years are getting just just

861
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.679
a little bit of justice. It doesn't bring anything back,

862
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:37.559
but at least Simpson tilla that somebody cared enough to

863
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.920
represent them, and that that was That was a huge

864
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:44.679
thing for me, huge monumental.

865
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.079
It wasn't like justice's retribution or justice's eye for an eye.

866
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:54.960
It was like justice as in fairness and restoring a bounce,

867
00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:59.360
and it was I can't remember where I read it,

868
00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:01.960
but I do rememb remember reading someone talking about the

869
00:45:02.039 --> 00:45:06.239
different types of justice, and that was another thing that

870
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.599
I had in mind, and I think actually we did

871
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:13.079
talk about that periodically. That you know, some people see

872
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.880
see the trial as a chance to get revenge, and

873
00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:20.760
you know, eye for an eye and the real true

874
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:25.039
kind of you know nuance. Justice is righting or wrong,

875
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:26.519
restoring a balance.

876
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:32.159
Absolutely, And I think for obviously a trial like this

877
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:35.360
where you're reading it play out and you can feel

878
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:40.440
that that sense of almost desperation, like what's going to happen?

879
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:42.639
He needs to be held responsible, you know, he brutally

880
00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.199
murdered these two young kids for lack of a better term,

881
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:49.280
you know, you want you want to see that happen,

882
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.880
And it's true for any other case, like it's not

883
00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:55.159
necessarily about you know, getting that retribution or getting that

884
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:59.000
revenge against whoever has killed someone's loved one. But it's

885
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:01.480
acknowledging that wrong was done it and asked to be

886
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:02.519
righted in some way.

887
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:07.079
Yeah. And one of the things, Courtney, it just summarized

888
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:09.280
the whole case in a way. And part, a big

889
00:46:09.320 --> 00:46:11.599
part of the case was if you read it. The

890
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:14.000
night before I did my closing argument, I met with

891
00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:16.519
somebody that was just insistent he had to see me.

892
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:19.039
And the last thing I wanted to do was see anybody.

893
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:21.239
I wanted to go home and get you get my

894
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.880
brain together for this. And he called so many times

895
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.679
and I oh, so finally I said, okay, fine, I

896
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.199
don't got much time. And if you read the book,

897
00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:34.760
what happened, I mean it was it was weird, you know,

898
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.760
because what he did was a crime, but I didn't

899
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:39.760
view it as a crime. It was more like, did

900
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:43.159
you really think I would take that? It insulted me

901
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.920
deeply to think that somebody in there, in any of them,

902
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.599
might ever think that me, Greg go on whatever I am,

903
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:54.320
would even think what would even consider that? And naturally

904
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.199
bothered me. And I don't know if that's weird, But

905
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.519
how dare you think that of me? What could you

906
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:03.039
ever think? Maybe he thought it was so much.

907
00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:06.039
There was a lot of money, but it was also

908
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:11.079
like kind of cheap too. It's like you're gonna sell

909
00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:12.119
yourself out for.

910
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:17.639
Mike says to me, Is that all he offered? I said,

911
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:20.400
you know, he was being joking, but you know, but

912
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:24.400
it was still I mean, I didn't even it could

913
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:25.880
have been a million dollars. I don't care was a

914
00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:29.639
trillion dollars. The fact that he thought I might take

915
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:33.239
that money. Yeah, And you know I've seen that person

916
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:35.000
since and I will still won't talk to him. It's

917
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.519
been forty five years. I will not greet him. I

918
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:40.199
told him at the time, I'll never talk to you

919
00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:43.079
as long as I live, and I've held to it never.

920
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:45.639
Because it was it's a question your integrity, like who

921
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:46.639
you are as a person.

922
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:49.239
Does somebody think I would do that? You? I mean,

923
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:53.039
it bothered me so much because I mean, are you

924
00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:55.920
well anyway? I mean I can feel that too right now,

925
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:59.320
how I felt like, why would you think? Now? It

926
00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:01.519
could have been a up See, there were some people

927
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.440
sitting in another booth that kept watching it might have

928
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.039
been an attempt. They had me if I did even

929
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:11.280
consider it, they'd have it on tape or something, see,

930
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:13.599
and then they would be turned over in the morning

931
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.840
and that trial would have been stopped. Well what a scandal.

932
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:21.199
That would be the lead prosecutor the night before. And

933
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:24.280
I think that was deploy I mean I think when

934
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:26.039
if we think about it, and we discussed it with

935
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.599
my bosses and stuff later, we think I was being

936
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:32.360
set up. They thought, even if you made any hint

937
00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:36.159
well maybe or well maybe more, you know, something like that,

938
00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:37.920
that would have been that thing there was the guy

939
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:40.400
was probably wired too, and that would have been turned

940
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:42.519
over to the FEDS right away. First. They would have

941
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:45.280
turned it into the news. Every news would have had

942
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:49.320
that tape. And that's what we realized later because they

943
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:52.639
said to me, just toned down your closing argument. And

944
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:55.119
I remember everybody, well my friends said, what's that mean.

945
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:58.320
I go, yeah, I know, what does that mean? Toned down?

946
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:02.400
You know, because I was known as being like a showman,

947
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:04.840
you know, whatever you want to call it. I mean

948
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.360
I exuded the passion I felt. Let's put it that

949
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:11.239
way for the case and tone down your clothing argument.

950
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:15.280
That was the whole thing, just tone it down. I

951
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:17.440
was so I was flabbergasted.

952
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.119
Anyway, Convergence is the first book in a series. So

953
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:25.239
how did the idea of doing this book of the series?

954
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:27.960
You're starting your own publishing house, you know, how did

955
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.559
that come about? What was the catalyst for that.

956
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:36.760
As we're writing Convergence, Greg is telling stories of being

957
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:41.599
a prosecutor, you know, beyond the time frame that Convergence

958
00:49:41.639 --> 00:49:46.119
happened in, and I he had said, like, you know,

959
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:48.960
I think maybe there's more than one book here. And

960
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.239
as he was telling the stories, I was like, there's

961
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:52.639
like a.

962
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.800
Whole there's a whole series.

963
00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:57.960
And one of the things that kind of made that

964
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:01.960
an even more attractive proposition, like writing a series, was

965
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.760
there are any number of you know, mystery fictional mystery books,

966
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:14.159
detective books involving the same sleuth, but I could not

967
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:21.119
find non a true crime series of books involving the

968
00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:24.519
same characters. And that was a really appealing idea because

969
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:29.719
it hadn't really been done. And the second and third books,

970
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:34.920
without giving much away, involves gangs, and Greg had been

971
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:39.159
named the head of the unit in charge of prosecuting

972
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:43.400
gang crimes by you know, Rich Daily. The Big Mary's son,

973
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:49.000
and those stories are are fantastic, you know, just really

974
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.960
great and compelling, and the story of the gang was

975
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:56.960
too much for one book. So Greg and I realized

976
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.119
also that there was a natural dividing line, and we're

977
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:03.559
going to make make it into two books, part one

978
00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:04.199
and part two.

979
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:04.599
I mean.

980
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:07.679
The challenge with the second one though, for me, is

981
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.480
we found the voice for the first one, but now

982
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:15.800
Greg's older, he's more experienced, and we need kind of

983
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:20.840
a new voice, and we're dealing with even more characters

984
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:25.400
in the second one, and that requires a lot more

985
00:51:26.440 --> 00:51:31.599
navigation than I had originally anticipated. But it's you know,

986
00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:36.800
we're coming along. And when it came time to publish Convergence, like,

987
00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.199
we sent it out, you know, we circulated it and

988
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:44.599
we sent it to one agent who like had some

989
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:50.480
pretty decent successes in his past, and unfortunately he was retiring,

990
00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:54.840
but he said, I got to tell you this is

991
00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:57.639
this is really good, you know, this is I was.

992
00:51:57.760 --> 00:51:59.639
I read the whole thing, and I didn't think I

993
00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:04.599
was going to So you know, we figured, like, all right,

994
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.199
if we really have to try to get it out there,

995
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.719
and publishing now is in such flux publishers are really

996
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:18.280
reticent to acquire things and to give authors what they're

997
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:22.159
you know, what their work is worth. And you know,

998
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:25.960
our other twenty sixth Street person, Nelly Rifler, she and

999
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:30.039
I both came up like going to punk shows and

1000
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.000
indie rock shows, and that's a whole kind of subculture

1001
00:52:34.079 --> 00:52:37.559
built on do it yourself, creating your own market, creating

1002
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:42.239
your own connections, like you know, producing stuff yourself. And

1003
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.320
it was a pretty quick train of thought to come

1004
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:50.280
up with the idea of starting a publishing company. And

1005
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:54.360
we both liked the and Greg too, liked the idea

1006
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:58.519
of just the freedom that that allows, like not having

1007
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.480
to you know, work, worry about what an editor might

1008
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:06.119
want or consider it might impede the commercial appeal of

1009
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:09.400
the book. And you know, Greg, Greg was kind of

1010
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:14.000
like Nelly and I would be mentioning, you know, punk bands,

1011
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:16.519
and Greg was like, what the hell are you talking about?

1012
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:21.039
But he got the do it yourself like independent idea immediately,

1013
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:25.320
Like there was barely any discussion. Once the ideas surfaced.

1014
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:27.239
It was kind of like, all right, how are we

1015
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:31.639
going to set it up? And it's it's been learning process,

1016
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:35.519
it's this is really it's hard. We're really excited for

1017
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:40.400
the second and third books, and.

1018
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:41.400
I can't wait to see what what you guys do next.

1019
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:44.119
Next book is called Pursuing Kings.

1020
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.639
By the way, there will be a chance to read

1021
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:49.920
parts of it before too much time passes.

1022
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:54.800
Kabro just introduces you to us, right, Pursuing Kings really

1023
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:58.920
gets deep. We got the Crimes Mob in Chicago, I

1024
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:01.639
mean hiring people to kill people across the country. Remember

1025
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:04.559
they were big gang leaders. Yeah, it's all them that

1026
00:54:04.960 --> 00:54:08.880
rugs murder. Hit Man's got it all. It's got a

1027
00:54:08.920 --> 00:54:10.320
lot of heart too, And there's a lot of heart

1028
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:11.199
there a lot of people.

1029
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.480
So the biggest question about the more Messina murders is

1030
00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:18.840
what the motive was. There's always been a favel one

1031
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:22.039
at all. We know this, But if you had to

1032
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.760
come up with a motive yourself, what would it be?

1033
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:28.519
And what is the motive challenge that you have going

1034
00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:30.920
on at twenty six Street Books.

1035
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:34.880
Challenge was there had been a lot of discussion just

1036
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:37.320
sort of you know, we knew we weren't going to

1037
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:40.679
attempt to theorize in the book itself what the motive

1038
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:43.360
might be, but there'd been a lot of talk among

1039
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:47.320
Greg and I and then Greg Nelly and I what

1040
00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:51.119
it might be, what could have been behind it, and

1041
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:57.159
Nelly said we should have some kind of contest involving this,

1042
00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.880
and then Greg sort of picked that up and took

1043
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.679
it to the form it's in now, which is the

1044
00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:07.800
motive challenge, where we are asking people to check the

1045
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:12.039
book out and then pretend you're doing a closing argument

1046
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:15.400
to a jury and you have to assign a motive

1047
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:18.199
to to see what people came up with it, to

1048
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.320
see what we missed to see, you know, where our

1049
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:25.440
blind spots were that other people could you know that

1050
00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:29.719
weren't bought. The contest is I mean tech I think

1051
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:33.159
like it's on the website now, but we're going to

1052
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:38.880
start really making announcements about it shortly and people can

1053
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:43.360
begin submitting the you know, their their theories, and I'm

1054
00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:46.760
really looking forward to I won't say what my theory

1055
00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:51.480
is now, just to avoid any undue influence, but I

1056
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:52.360
do have one.

1057
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:54.760
Well, see one. The thing we're doing is this, those

1058
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:57.119
people who haven't purchased a book, We're given them an

1059
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.599
opportunity to get either a paperback ebook or or do

1060
00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:03.199
your book for free. They have to sign up the

1061
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:07.519
investigators for twenty sixth Street Investigators see and so if

1062
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:09.800
the first now everybody can do this, but the first

1063
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:13.800
fifty that join, they will get this opportunity and they

1064
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:15.760
have to read it by a certain date and then

1065
00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:19.320
submit their theory, and the woman is gonna win. Three days,

1066
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.960
two nights, the Chicago taken to the crime scene, the courthouse, courtroom,

1067
00:56:23.239 --> 00:56:26.360
to where you know, the people lived, where the big

1068
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:29.199
where the defendant lived, where we thought, where I met

1069
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:31.800
people and stuff. Then we're going to meet that person

1070
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:34.679
for dinner and they can ask us individual questions and

1071
00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:37.519
then one will win that, and then four winners will

1072
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:40.519
win five hundred dollars each, and their theories will be

1073
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:42.840
on our website and all of our social media sites,

1074
00:56:42.880 --> 00:56:46.519
and you know, we'll publish it. And I think it's fun.

1075
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:49.400
I think it'll be fun for people because it's stumped

1076
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.199
me forever. I've come up with things. And I don't

1077
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.840
know about that, but all I can tell you is this,

1078
00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:00.639
the murder took place with they stabbed the people to death. Now,

1079
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:05.440
stabbing somebody is very tough. It's a real personal thing.

1080
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:07.599
I mean, you know, I've talked to plenty of people

1081
00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:09.559
who have been stabbed or people that stay at people.

1082
00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:12.840
You know, to put a knife in somebody a money

1083
00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:17.199
times is usually a crime of passion or crime of stealth,

1084
00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:21.280
and this had to be a crime of passion. There

1085
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:23.760
had to be something going on between these people that

1086
00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:27.920
I just don't know about something. And that's what I like, somebody,

1087
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:30.440
what do you think it was? I don't. I mean,

1088
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:33.440
I swear to you through this book. I mean you

1089
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:36.000
might have read that. We're constantly talking about what do

1090
00:57:36.039 --> 00:57:37.960
you think the motive was? I'm telling the mike. I

1091
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:39.360
got to get up there and say something. What am

1092
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.119
I gonna say? People don't worry about there's a jury instruction.

1093
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:44.239
I go, I don't. If there's an instruction, the judge

1094
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:46.320
says the jury the state doesn't have to prove motive.

1095
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:49.800
That's a nice thing to say, Okay, but you get

1096
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:51.199
up there and try to argue a murder case. We

1097
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:55.239
got one guy, no other evidence, and that's it. And

1098
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:57.400
you got to convince them that this guy's telling me

1099
00:57:57.440 --> 00:57:59.119
the truth, that that man sit in there did it.

1100
00:57:59.400 --> 00:58:02.119
That's not easy and it bothered me, like.

1101
00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:06.679
And it she bought other people too, because when I

1102
00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:10.480
got on the phone with Ted O'Connor and I brought

1103
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:14.079
the case up. First thing out of his mouth was, yeah,

1104
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.320
I remember that one. I could never figure out why

1105
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:19.360
the guy did it. And you know, this is like,

1106
00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:24.000
you know, almost fifty years later that Ted is saying this,

1107
00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:28.880
And you know, there is certainly crimes in Chicago and

1108
00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:34.239
obviously elsewhere that have kind of a higher number of victims,

1109
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:39.000
you know, involved. But I think the fact that it

1110
00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:43.400
was a particularly brutal stabbing, combined with the complete lack

1111
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:48.039
of motive, combined with who the killer was, it's it's

1112
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:51.800
it is, that's what makes it memorable. I think he

1113
00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:52.719
was very wealthy.

1114
00:58:52.719 --> 00:58:54.800
He had no reason to do this. There was no robbery,

1115
00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:58.599
nothing was taken, and there was a witness. He still

1116
00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:00.400
did it in spite of the fact of somebody was

1117
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.320
there for part of it. And he wasn't insane, so

1118
00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:07.719
it had to be something. You don't just come in

1119
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:10.599
and stab two people at death. It's quicker to shoot him.

1120
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:11.800
But he stabbed him.

1121
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:12.880
And there was a gun there.

1122
00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:16.679
Yeah, there was actually gun right there he and he

1123
00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:19.079
had picked it up himself. He was waving it around

1124
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:19.920
before he.

1125
00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:23.000
I have never thought of that. Actually, you're right, there

1126
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:24.000
was a gun there.

1127
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:26.079
There was all the help.

1128
00:59:26.159 --> 00:59:29.679
The neighbors were like, they could have made as much

1129
00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:31.920
noise as they wanted, like you know, a gun shot

1130
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:35.480
or and yeah, he could have used that, and he didn't,

1131
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:38.280
and he knew it was there because he had help.

1132
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:41.440
He held in his hand. He pointed at Cedric. Yeah

1133
00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:44.800
that's but he still came armed with eleven his butcher knife.

1134
00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:50.360
Who does that? No criminal record whatsoever, zero, never been

1135
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:54.440
in trouble. And he was not crazy. I mean he's

1136
00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:57.360
a psychopath, but I mean he's not legally crazy. So

1137
00:59:58.199 --> 01:00:00.239
we want somebody to figure it out by reading. Maybe

1138
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:03.280
get down deep and tell me why you think I

1139
01:00:03.760 --> 01:00:06.960
swear I recently I tried to call his lawyer, who

1140
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.119
is now eighty six, and he's not in the health

1141
01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:13.320
that he could remember anyway. I'm when I was under say,

1142
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:15.519
I don't have to tell anybody. I'm just I want

1143
01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:19.000
to know that bad because you might know, I don't know,

1144
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:22.320
he might not even know. I don't know. We want

1145
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:24.960
somebody to do tell us why they did it, why

1146
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:26.960
he did it. Maybe they don't.

1147
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:30.519
Someone comes up with a really, really good theory. I

1148
01:00:30.599 --> 01:00:33.360
think it's gonna have the ring of truth to it. Yeah,

1149
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:36.440
like it's going to feel like, yeah, that's probably it.

1150
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:39.679
I look forward to saying what the winners come up with.

1151
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:43.320
I think it'll be really interesting because this is this

1152
01:00:43.400 --> 01:00:45.199
is a tough one in terms of motive. It doesn't

1153
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.119
make a lot of sense. But thank you both for

1154
01:00:48.199 --> 01:00:50.840
joining me today. It has been a pleasure talking with you, Boul.

1155
01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:55.039
Thank you very much, this is great.

1156
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:56.960
Thank you for the opportunity.

1157
01:00:58.239 --> 01:01:02.280
Oh of course, and for everyone listening. Check out the

1158
01:01:02.320 --> 01:01:04.559
source notes below. There will be links to where you

1159
01:01:04.599 --> 01:01:07.960
can get convergence. Definitely check it out. I really enjoyed

1160
01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:10.440
reading it. Keep an eye off for these subsequent books.

1161
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:15.719
Check out the motive challenge and give us give it

1162
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:20.559
a shot what you think the motive was in this crime.

1163
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:23.920
But with that, I hope you have a wonderful week

1164
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:25.880
and I will talk to you in the next chapter

1165
01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:30.199
of the Book of the Dead. Bye guys. Another page closed.

1166
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:35.039
But the story isn't over for the families left behind.

1167
01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.519
The pain doesn't end when the headline's fade. And for

1168
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:42.760
the victims, we owe them more than silence for our

1169
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:46.760
on solved cases. If you have any information, please reach

1170
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:49.360
out to local authorities. Or visit our show notes for

1171
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links and resources. Someone out there knows something. Maybe it's you.

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Thank you for listening to the Book of the Dead.

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If this story moved or spoke to you in some way,

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talk about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until

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next time, I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and

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stay vigilant. And remember the dead may be gone, but

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their stories will not be forgotten.