Chapter 114: The Devil in the Details-The Unsolved Death of Jeannette DePalma w/ Brian Santana

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Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.

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In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay

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the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,

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waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This

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is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast

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where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,

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re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath

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the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and

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every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,

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Network INDEP Podcasts with the twist.

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Sometimes it's not the loudest stories that keep us up

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at night. It's the quiet ones, the ones that never

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quite made the headlines, the ones that left behind more

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questions than answers. The Final Trace is a true crime

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podcast about the strange, the unresolved, and the stories that

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slipped through the cracks, from disappearances to mysterious debts to

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cases that were technically solved but still don't sit right.

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We dig into the overlooked, the eerie, and the human

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side of every story. Because even when a case goes cold,

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there's always something left behind, a clue, a feeling, a

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final trace. Follow the final trace wherever you listen to

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podcasts and confined with still lingers in the silence, I'm

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your host Hopper Daily, and this is the final trace.

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Hello, Hello, Welcome to the next chapter in the Book

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of the Dead. With me, I have a special guest today.

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I have joining me as my co host, Brian Santana,

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author of a murder on campus, the cop the professor

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in North Carolina's most notorious cold case about the unsold

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murder of Virginia Olsen. So Brian's here with me today.

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Thank you for.

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Joining me, Thank you for having me.

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Recently, I've spoken a lot about Satanism and the occults

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and the homicides that have occurred as a result of

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the Satanic panic, And regardless of whether or not you

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may be tired of listening to it, I like talking

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about it. So when thinking about this panic surrounding the

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rise of Satanism, most people view it through the lens

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of what was going on on the West Coast in

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the sixties the seventies, and this is mostly due to

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the founding of Anton Leavey's Church of Satan and the

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Manson family murders, but you also have the conspiracy surrounding

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Satanism that were gaining popularity during this time and through

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the nineties. According to social and cultural historian Philip Harland,

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this was primarily due to a few different factors. There

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was an increase in Christian therapists reporting cases where children

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and adults were allegedly confessing to be involved in Satanic worship,

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claiming to be victimized by a cult, though Harland does

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claim that these confessions were coerced through suggestive interrogation, and

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this feeled the idea that there were secret Satanic cults

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quote systemically exploiting both children and adults to engage in

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wild and demonic rituals, which spawned multiple handbooks for other

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therapists to combat this alleged Satanic ritual abuse. There was

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also a growing fear that various bands were hiding demonic

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messages in their records through backmasking, so if you played

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a record backwards, some people could apparently hear hidden messages,

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and a popular example of this is Thearebay to Heaven.

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They're supposedly like demonic alternate lyrics and steraoid to Heaven

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if you play it backwards. After the Church of Satan's conception, though,

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there were fears within Christian circles that new religious movements

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were lying to or brainwashing potential members into joining what

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they perceived to be cults, and these cults were, whether

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unintentionally or otherwise, worshiping Satan. So as a response to that,

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there is a resurgence of evangelical Christianity called the Jesus

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People Movement, which started in the sixties to turn people,

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specifically the youth that were becoming increasingly interested in hippie

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culture and mysticism, towards Jesus and ultimately salvation. So the

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Jesus People Movement emphasized Jesus as being the center of

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their worship, with a lesser focus on God and the

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Holy Spirit, which can be seen in the worship music

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that was produced during this time. While not as prevalent now,

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many Pentecostal and evangelical churches have roots in the Jesus

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People Movement, and while it's more closely associated with California,

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its influence was seen all over the country, and eventually

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it made its way to New Jersey, where there were

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quite a few counties seeing an uptick in rebellious behavior

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from a younger crowd, and the fear of Satanism and

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cult activity was becoming more pronounced. Because of this fear,

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there were many times where the motive for someone's murder

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was either seriously considered by police to involve Satanism or

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the rumors of Satanists committing these murders were running rampant

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and it hindered investigations. And one such case that this

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occurred in is the death of Janetta Pama. Janetta Pamas

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was born on August third, nineteen fifth, twenty six to

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Florence and Salvatory Topama in Jersey City, New Jersey, and

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she was the seventh of their eight children. She had

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four sisters and three brothers, and sometime in the mid sixties,

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when Jeannette is around ten years old, the family moves

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from Brussel to Springfield into a house on Mountain Road,

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which was inhabited by wealthier families compared to some of

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the other residents that lived in Springfield. Allegedly, some of

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the townspeople weren't too happy to have the family there,

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but that could have just been from a bit of bias.

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Springfield had evolved from a small farming town into a

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more well to do community with a lot of New

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York transplants, and the original residents weren't always happy that

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the beautiful new homes being built were being filled with

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out of towners. However, there were other rumors about the

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Topama family coming from their direct neighbors as well. According

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to Death in the Devil's Teeth by Jesse Pollock and

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Mark Moran, the Depama family was very private and rarely

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left their home, which they found to be very strange,

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and allegedly the police were called more than once after

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Salvatore and Florence got into arguments, and Salvatore was also

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rumored to have ties to the mafia, which is unsubstantiated.

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Could be true, could not be true, I don't know.

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At least one neighbor, Mary Starr, claimed that the family

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was rather mean. Specifically, there were claims that the children

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were kind of mean and kind of bullies, and the

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girls were tough. There was a lot of gossip about

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the family going around in town, and there was a

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lot of gossip about Jeanette, especially when she was around

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fourteen or fifteen years old in nineteen seventy. So who

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Janet was as a person is a little bit of

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a mystery because it's hard to separate fact from fiction

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with her personality and what she was like, but also

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from her case in general. Her family is still very private,

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although her nieces and nephews have been more open to

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speaking out about Jeanette in more recent years. Depending on

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who you listen to, Janette was either very reserved, almost stoic,

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and very religious, but others claimed Jeanette was a wild child,

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off doing drugs, partying, and gallivanting around with boys. Her

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friend Grace Damorro, who Jeanette met in nineteen seventy at

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Jonathan Dayon Regional High School after transferring there from Union

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Catholic Regional High School, told Jesse Pollock quote, the thing

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about Jeanette was this, When you first saw her, you

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assumed this preconceived notion of her being this tough, fast

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and wild girl. But when you would start talking to her,

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she was so sweet, honest and funny. She was very sweet,

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but she didn't take anyone's crap. She didn't necessarily start trouble,

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but she wouldn't back down if someone started with her. Still,

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with all of that in mind. When Jeanette showed you

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her vulnerable side, you were seeing the real Jeanette. Jeanette's

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alleged drug use probably started from the idea that Jeannette

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smoked marijuana every so often, and like a lot of

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sixteen year old girls, especially once you were very pretty,

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she got a lot of attention from boys and really

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liked to kiss them. So through the lens of twenty

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twenty five, this is normal and almost expected of a

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teenage girl to experience, but in the early seventies it

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started rumors that Jeannette was very promiscuous. What also made

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Jeanette a bit different from her classmates and contributed to

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setting her and her family apart from their neighbors, who

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were Italian Roman Catholics, was that they had become very

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enthusiastically involved in the Jesus People movement after their youngest daughter, Cindy,

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had joined a friend's family at the Assemblies of God

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evangel Church in Elizabeth. After Cindy started going, the entire

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family joined the church, claiming to be born again Evangelical Christians.

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The Central New Jersey Home News quotes Florence's claiming that

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Jeanette was heavily involved with their church and had decided

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to turn her life towards her faith, becoming involved in

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her community to encourage others to do the same. She

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also worked to help those with substance abuse problems and

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was considering going to Bible College. What's particularly interesting about

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their involvement with this movement is that the pastor of

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another church they attended, which was Calvary Tabernacle Church in Cranford,

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had made some increasingly contradictory statements about how he remembered Jeanette.

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So Pastor James Tate claimed to Jesse Pollock that Florence

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had told him that Jeanette was writing a book about

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Satanism at one point, but Jeanette's cousin Lisa, spoke of

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how Chane Jinette were Jesus freaks and regularly went out

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handing flyers to people speaking about their church. But Pastor

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Tate alleged that this wasn't true. He claimed that Jeanette

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quote attended services, but I don't think I could say

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her interests were really in Jesus so much as her

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involvement in the occult. She was definitely involved in some

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occult things. It's so strange that she wanted to be

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involved with that, especially when her family was getting so

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involved with the Lord. Knowing her it was probably an

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act of rebellion. She was a very rebellious girl. Oh.

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This claim was vehemently refuted by Lisa, her friend Grace,

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and Jeannette's sister Cindy. Outside of being interested in like

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engaging in spooky games at slumber parties, there were never

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any indications that Jeanette was interested in the occults or

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for devil worship or anything like that.

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I'm wondering you, is this one of these scenarios as

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you're describing it. It's interesting because they have both devil

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worship and have Jesus freaks both come up in the

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same senates where the accusation on one hand is that

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there is this kind of worship that has kind of

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migrated from the West coast right that she's found the occult.

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On the other hand, we have these older pastors from

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these well established churches that have been around for a

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long time that seem deeply skeptical of her. So and

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I'm wondering, is there a sense that these Jesus freaks

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which were this was a youth movement as well, like

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to what extent was this skepticism about Jeanette or this

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difficulty in hinting her down at least in terms of

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the religion angle. How much of this is really about

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this kind of like youth and counterculture and where these

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Jesus freaks in some ways feel threatening. Maybe it's a

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different kind of threatening, but threatening in a way that

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is not that far off from the way that this

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kind of satanic, satanic worshpurs and panic are, you know,

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feel threatening to them.

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Yeah, it's it's interesting. Pastor Tate is interesting in general

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because it's very clear that the family only the church

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in nineteen seventy, and they didn't even they didn't join

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his church like they attended sometimes, but that wasn't like

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their quote unquote home church. So there's no way he

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knew Jenet that well to begin with. So I'm confused

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as to how he had this solid idea of Jeannette

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and being like into the cult or devil worship or whatever.

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But there's no way he knew her that well because

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it's not like they live down the street from him.

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And it makes you wonder the extent to what you

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need the family in general. You're just describing the fact

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that police were always being called out to the household,

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and at least and that's the kind of accusation that

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the book makes about the Miran makes and they would

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be kind of shoot away by mister Palma say like no,

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it's it's all over now, I think the way he

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describes it. And it's interesting that the pastor kind of

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isolates the family is having some kind of conversion or

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being kind of serious Christians when there's this activity that

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is being reported. So the police are always kind of

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going out there, but Jeanette is somehow kind of like

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less than devout right. It's a kind of odd kind

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of tension in the way that people kind of view her.

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She seems to be kind of receive a lot more

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scrutiny than the rest of the family, even though they

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tended to keep to themselves, and it doesn't seem like

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there's a lot of people who really know that family exactly.

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Like a lot of the rumors, like there were general rumors, oh,

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the girls are tough, the girls are kind of mean.

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You know, there wasn't a lot of talk about the boys,

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but then when you look into specific rumors, they're all

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about Janette Jeanette was promiscuous, Janette was a wild child. Jannette,

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you know, was off running around with boys. Jeanette was

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apparently getting picked up by cops for sleeping with boys

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and cars, even though there's no record of that actually happening. Like,

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there's all of these things about Janette specifically, and it

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was weird that people focused on her so much because

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at the end of the day, she was like a

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fifteen year old in this really big Italian family, Like

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what made her so different that people wanted to like

237
00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.039
constantly talk about her, whether it was good or bad.

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00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.840
These statements, though, that pastor Take gave during his discussion

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00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.159
with Jessie Pollock and Mark Moran years after Jeanette's death,

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00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.919
were widely different to the statements he gave to the

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00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.200
media in nineteen seventy two. In numerous interviews. He said

242
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:27.600
that Jeanette was incredibly devout in her faith and regularly

243
00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.840
spoke of God to her friends and even acquaintances. He said,

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00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:36.159
according to these original interviews, that he was adamant that

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00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.960
Jeanette was not involved in anything to do with the devil,

246
00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.320
So it is it's interesting that he changed his tune

247
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:46.600
decades after the fact, it could be due to not

248
00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.120
wanting to offend Florence, who had a very specific idea

249
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.840
of who her daughter was and what her family was like,

250
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:55.720
and she was very local about that in the media,

251
00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.120
that Jeanette was a good girl, she didn't do any drugs,

252
00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.919
she didn't do any partying. You know, she was you know,

253
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.320
she had given her life completely to the Lord, and

254
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.799
she was going to turn her life around. So it's

255
00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.600
possible that he just didn't want to in that moment

256
00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:13.519
say anything that would upset her, especially because Florence was

257
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:19.320
apparently kind of intense. But regardless of how anyone felt

258
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:22.879
about Jeanette, it doesn't alter the fact that something really

259
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.399
terrible would go on to happen to her. That is

260
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.200
still a mystery fifty three years after the fact. So

261
00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.840
on August seventh, nineteen seventy two, four days after her

262
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.559
sixteenth birthday, Jeanette left home to go to work, according

263
00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.840
to Justice Jeanette dot Com, but she never returned home.

264
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.200
Florence and Salvatere were Portunette missing that same night, but

265
00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:47.080
it would be six weeks before anyone could give them

266
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:50.840
any answers as to where their daughter was. In fact,

267
00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:52.399
as far as I can tell, there was no real

268
00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.360
investigation into her disappearance. There's no like media coverage at all.

269
00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:59.720
It's possible that the police believed her to be a

270
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.039
right away and that's why they weren't maybe taking the

271
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:06.720
investigation seriously, because they thought she just ran off of

272
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:10.480
her own volition. It is stated in Death in the

273
00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:12.839
Double's Teeth that Jeanett would hitchhike at night with her

274
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.079
friends to meet up with other friends or boys that

275
00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.039
they were interested in, so it's not really a stretch

276
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:21.680
to think that police might have believed that she would

277
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:27.799
just come home eventually. However, on September nineteenth, Sergeant Lewis

278
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.839
Quinton of the Springfield Police was on desk duty when

279
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.480
he got a call at eleven forty am from a

280
00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.400
woman living in the apartments on Wilson Road named Missus Treason.

281
00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.359
Missus Treason reported that her dog had come home with

282
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.880
what appeared to be a human bone in its mouth.

283
00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.160
Springfield response and determines that the dog had found a

284
00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.720
badly decomposed left arm in hand. By three pm, more

285
00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.720
officers from Springfield PD, detectives from Union County, and two

286
00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.039
officers from Ocean County Sheriff's officer arrived to canvas the

287
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.200
area for more remains. Everything happens from this point on

288
00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:09.119
goes on really really quickly, like matter of hours. About

289
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.920
an hour after the police arrive and Officer Hardy radios

290
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.160
that he found a small bone just off of Route

291
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:20.039
seventy eight near Hude Quarry, which is right nearby Wilson

292
00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.880
Road in the woods. Forty minutes later, Officer Donald Schwartz

293
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:29.519
announced that he had found the body. The original incident

294
00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:31.759
report calls the area in which the body was found

295
00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:36.279
a small hill. It's not a hill. In reality. The

296
00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.039
body was found atop what is known as the Devil's Teeth,

297
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.480
and it's it's a cliff. It's not a high cliff,

298
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:47.000
but it's definitely not a hill, a small mound like

299
00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.759
anyway they describe it in the incident report or the

300
00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.200
investigation in the case, it's not a hill. It is

301
00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.599
a cliff. It has a steep drop on one side,

302
00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.680
it's overgrown completely on all of the others. The body

303
00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.279
was badly decomposed, but they believed it to be female.

304
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.319
It was small in stature and the body was laying

305
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.920
face down on the ground. Clothed in a blue shirt

306
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:13.279
and tan pants. Nearby was a pair of brown flip flops.

307
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.160
Based on the clothes and the color of the hair,

308
00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:20.039
which was dark brown, the Springfield Police believed that this

309
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.000
was possibly the body of Jeannette to Palma. The Union

310
00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:27.400
County medical examiner Bernard Ehrenberg, was notified of the body

311
00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:30.160
being found and made the pronouncement of death when he

312
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:32.799
arrived at the quarry at five after six that evening.

313
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.559
While police waited for doctor Ehrenberg to arrive, they searched

314
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.079
the area for any evidence to help them determine what

315
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:45.319
had happened, but they didn't find much at all. Near

316
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.240
the body, they found what they believed to be the

317
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:51.000
contents of a purse. They found a Marcel tissue packet,

318
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:56.400
a vixenhaler, a compact, a blue comb, a lipstick, a keyring,

319
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:02.240
a vial with an unknown substance, a small plastic eyeshadow palate.

320
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.359
They never found a purse, nor did they find a wallet.

321
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.319
After the pronouncement of death was made, police were tasked

322
00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:13.200
with getting the body out of the quarry, and the

323
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:16.960
problem with this is that the area was so difficult

324
00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.720
to traverse. It was so Overgomee with foliage, there were

325
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.440
down trees. Officer Schwort, who found the body, said that

326
00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:26.599
even in hiking boots, he had a really hard time

327
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.400
navigating the land. So police called the fire department to

328
00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:33.079
send a truck with a rescue ladder so that they

329
00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.279
could bring the body down over the side of the cliff,

330
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.400
and they did that almost like with a polleye system.

331
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:43.559
They couldn't physically carry the body down the cliff. The

332
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.279
body was then transported to Sullivan's funeral home in Rosel

333
00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:51.400
where a very brief examination of the body was conducted.

334
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.440
The body, due to how badly was decomposed, made identification

335
00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:04.079
nearly impossible, so doctor JJ Gladstone, a dentist in Springfields,

336
00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.960
was the one who positively identified the body as belonging

337
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:11.359
to jenet'spoma based on dental records. The body was X

338
00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:16.160
ray but no evidence of bullet wounds, fractures, or stab

339
00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:19.279
wounds were present, and a piece of her skull and

340
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:23.079
hair was sent off for toxicology testing. According to the

341
00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.400
Emmy report, they were unable to test for alcohol content,

342
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:28.960
but there was a high level of lead in her system.

343
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:32.640
Although it is believed that the lead probably came from

344
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.839
the soil from where her body was found. Interestingly enough, though,

345
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.079
in the memo attached to the scalp, in the section

346
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:45.160
marked for requested testing, alcohol and heavy metals was requested,

347
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.680
and so was testing for barbituates, but that particular request

348
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:53.559
was crossed out. Ultimately, doctor Ehrenberg was unable to make

349
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:57.279
a determination on cause of death, and the entire examination,

350
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:01.039
because I am reluctant to call it an autopsy, took

351
00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.200
an hour from start to finish, and I can understand

352
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.480
that there wasn't a lot to go on the condition

353
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.119
of her remains the fact that the early seventies didn't

354
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.960
have the luxury of sophisticated technology to do throughout testing.

355
00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.319
There's a very good possibility though, that had doctor Arenberg

356
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:21.720
been an actual pathologist and not just a physician, he

357
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:26.319
might have gotten more out of the autopsy. Unfortunately, what hindered,

358
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.680
at least in my humble opinion, the investigation into Jeanette's

359
00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:36.400
death was a series of bone headed moves by the police.

360
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.960
Jeanette's case has long been associated with the Occult since

361
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.079
the very beginning, which stirred up a lot of rumors

362
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:48.279
that more than likely skewed the investigation and the investigators

363
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:53.880
thought processes. Police allegedly claimed that Jeanette's body had been

364
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:58.880
found surrounded by satanic or ritualistic symbols. They claimed her

365
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:00.480
head was in front of what they leap to be

366
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.240
an altar, the logs and sticks were formed into crosses.

367
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:08.559
There were arrows carved in the trees. None of this

368
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:13.480
is true. None of the crime scene photos, well heavily redacted,

369
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.440
show anything that the police were allegedly describing. The quote

370
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.160
unquote alter was just some rocks that it happened to

371
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.160
be clustered together, and none of the logs near her

372
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:25.839
body were arranged in a way that looked like any

373
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.720
sort of symbol, let alone across this satanic angle, though,

374
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:34.319
according to what officer Schwartz told the Courier News, most

375
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:37.799
likely started when another officer made a throwaway comment about

376
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:40.559
the rocks looking like something satanic, and people just kind

377
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.039
of ran with it. While I am confused as to

378
00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:48.880
why anyone took that seriously, I'm not surprised, considering there

379
00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.160
was a lot of what people believed to be satanic

380
00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:56.759
rituals happening in the woods of the nearby Watchhong reservation. Allegedly,

381
00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:01.319
people on the reservation were reporting finding evidence animal sacrifice,

382
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:05.039
and Union County Park Police reported finding bowls of blood

383
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:08.240
and ritualistic symbolism in the area around the time that

384
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:12.880
Jeanette's body had been found. Police definitely took the idea

385
00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:17.319
of Jeanette's death being satanic in some way seriously enough, though,

386
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:22.119
because they reportedly brought a witch to the scene, although

387
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.079
if this witch found anything, or if they were helpful

388
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:28.440
in any way, it was never reported on. Though the

389
00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.200
mention of a witch being brought in at all is

390
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.240
never mentioned in the case file, it's only mentioned in

391
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.960
the original media coverage. Because of the rumors of the occult,

392
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.799
the Union County Prosecutor's office wide in their investigation area

393
00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.559
to include two other cases speculated to be occult related,

394
00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:49.680
to look for a connection or evidence of a cult

395
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:54.400
or a coven operating in New Jersey, which there was

396
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.799
There was a big coven operating in New Jersey at

397
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:04.400
the time, but they were very passive, very very passive. Specifically,

398
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.039
they looked at the murders of the List family and

399
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:10.599
the murder of Patrick Newell. The List family was killed

400
00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.519
the year before about five miles away from Springfield in Westfield,

401
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.680
New Jersey, by John List. He murdered his wife and

402
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:20.319
children and fled the state, and he was on the

403
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.759
run until a neighbor recognized the composite sculpture on America's

404
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:26.920
Most Wanted as being John List in nineteen eighty nine

405
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.960
and called the police. They were looking at this case

406
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.599
specifically because there was an alleged statement made that John's

407
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.200
daughter Patricia was involved or interested in the occult, which

408
00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:42.920
had literally zero bearing on the family's murders at all,

409
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:47.480
but apparently Union County belief it was related. And Patrick

410
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:51.559
Newell had been killed two hours away in Millville. He

411
00:25:51.640 --> 00:25:53.880
had been tied up and thrown into a river where

412
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.720
he drowned by two of his friends, and according to police,

413
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:02.000
Patrick belonged to a Satanic organization and enlisted his two

414
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:04.119
friends to help him die so that he could be

415
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.359
in control of forty demons. The two friends were convicted

416
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:11.599
in his death, but the defense attorney did try to

417
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.759
frame this as being like an assisted suicide, not murder.

418
00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.119
On top of this, there was the idea that Jeannette's

419
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.359
body had been found in an area known for partying,

420
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.880
and that her death may have been the result of

421
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.359
an overdose. Besides the fact that no evidence of drugs

422
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:31.079
was allegedly found in her system, although when they tested

423
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:34.400
for this, I'm not sure because they crossed out that

424
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:38.640
particular test on the request log. The area, as I said,

425
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.440
was so heavily overgrown and so difficult to get to

426
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.680
that it's really hard to believe teenagers were just hanging

427
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.880
out there. Plus, there was no evidence of a party

428
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.799
that can be seen in the crime scene photos. There

429
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:56.119
was no evidence of drug paraphnelia found, no just regular

430
00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:01.480
garbage that's found when Tina throw party in the woods.

431
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.319
The police also had and I'm using this term loosely

432
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.400
odd procedures in place for evidence found at the scene.

433
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.319
Her arm was placed in the break room refrigerator, which

434
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.319
was allegedly done because it was rarely used and it

435
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:21.720
was the only place they had that could accommodate a

436
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.319
human arm. However, police also said it was because the

437
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:28.039
chain of command had already been broken, so they weren't

438
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:31.559
worried about contaminating evidence because the first thing that had

439
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:36.079
the arm was a dog, so they couldn't follow chain

440
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:37.839
of command, so it didn't matter where they put the arm.

441
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.400
They also because the FBI requested they dry her clothing

442
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.599
before sending it off for testing, laid out her clothing

443
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:51.599
on an air conditioner outside to dry so they could

444
00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:55.160
send them off for that testing. The testing that was

445
00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:59.039
done was done on spots believed to possibly be seminal fluid,

446
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:03.200
but that came back inconclusive. The sample was too degraded,

447
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:05.680
and none of the hair sent for testing came back

448
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:10.359
as belonging to anyone other than Jeanette. However, that vile

449
00:28:10.599 --> 00:28:14.599
with the mystery substance was never tested, even though it

450
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:19.079
is acknowledged multiple times in the file that police had

451
00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:23.440
no idea what the substance was that was inside it,

452
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:28.000
but had been glitter, could have been drugs. I have

453
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:32.400
no idea because they didn't test it. The investigation into

454
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.839
Jeanette's death is very brief, but ten days after her

455
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.559
body is found, a woman named Robin Lee Decky came

456
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:41.759
forward and claimed that she had picked up a girl

457
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:46.319
hitchhiking on the evening that Jeanette went missing. According to

458
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.319
the witness statement, Robin said she was driving to Berkeley

459
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.319
Heights from Kenilworth when she came across a young girl

460
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:56.440
around fifteen or sixteen looking for a ride to Berkeley Heights.

461
00:28:57.440 --> 00:28:59.359
The girl said she was going to meet friends over

462
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:03.240
by the Aid, and Robin agreed to drop her off

463
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:05.680
about a block away, which was as far as she

464
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:09.240
was going. She said the girl was petite, she was

465
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:12.720
wearing a light colored shirt and tan pants, had dark hair,

466
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:15.480
and spent the drive fiddling with the strap to her purse.

467
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:19.720
The original statement claims this occurred at eight thirty PM

468
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:22.279
on the night Jeanette when missing, but Robin told the

469
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.759
Courier News that she had distinctly remembered it being closer

470
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.759
to eleven because she remembered it being odd that the

471
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.799
girl was hitchhiking so late. In fact, she found it

472
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.720
so odd that she marked it on her calendar. After

473
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:37.960
a few weeks, the investigation grinds to a halt. The

474
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:40.680
police have nothing to go on. There's no witnesses, there's

475
00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:45.720
no other evidence, and while the media was relatively diligent

476
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.839
in reporting on Jeanette's death initially, they stopped writing about

477
00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:53.599
her after about a month, and people started to forget

478
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:57.359
about her until a letter referencing her case was published

479
00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:01.599
in a Weird New Jersey article. After this was published,

480
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.640
Weird New Jersey editors received an influx of messages from

481
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:07.680
readers saying how they remember Jeanette and her case and

482
00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:12.079
how it had never been solved. Jesse Pollock and Mark Moran,

483
00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.200
who wrote for Weird New Jersey, attempted to receive the

484
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:19.839
case file sometime in the two thousands, but police claims

485
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:22.720
that the entire file had been destroyed in a flood

486
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.000
from Hurricane Floyd in nineteen ninety nine. Police in Union

487
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:29.279
County Prosecutor's office were adamant that the file either didn't

488
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.839
exist anymore or they just outright refused to release it.

489
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.319
In fact, in the file is a request for the

490
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:41.039
information made by Jeanette's nephew, which was denied, which is

491
00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.480
interesting primarily because after the article came out, it was

492
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.200
announced by police that they would be reopening the case,

493
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:49.759
even though they claimed it had never been closed in

494
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.319
the first place. Jesse and markco on to publish their

495
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:56.799
book about her case even without the file in twenty fifteen,

496
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.279
with the help of Jeanette's nephew, Race sint Jesski. The

497
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.079
book covers her case but also explains the idea that

498
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.799
Jeanette was the victim of a possible serial killer, connecting

499
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.079
her death to others that were similar during that time.

500
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.720
First was Joan Kramer from South Orange, who was strangled

501
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.000
and left face down in a wooded area in late

502
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.839
August nineteen seventy two, and then mary Anne Pryor and

503
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.960
Lorraine Kelly, who were also killed viya strangulation and left

504
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.759
in the woods in Maudvale in nineteen seventy four. All

505
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.240
of the victims were teenagers with dark hair and a

506
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.960
slim build. All were believed to have been hitchhiking on

507
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:36.680
the night they were killed, and all had items taken

508
00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:40.160
from them. In Jeanette's case, her purse was missing and

509
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.240
so was her crossed necklace. Jesse told the Hudson Reporter

510
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:47.440
of his serial killer theory quote, it's not very often

511
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:49.839
you hear about a serial killer picking up two victims51200:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.839



at once, said, Bundy killed two girls in one day,51300:31:52.920 --> 00:31:54.839



but didn't pick them up at the same time. But51400:31:55.000 --> 00:31:58.920



it's definitely possible that one person, especially a big person51500:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.279



with a gun, could easily subdue girls who were a51600:32:01.319 --> 00:32:03.680



foot shorter and weigh a fraction of what he did.51700:32:04.519 --> 00:32:07.039



Whoever killed them took them to a different location and51800:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.160



did whatever he did over the course of a couple51900:32:09.160 --> 00:32:13.160



of days, either one person committed all of these crimes,52000:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.160



or the other option, which is a lot scarier, is52100:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.119



that you have multiple killers operating in the same area52200:32:19.319 --> 00:32:23.200



at the same time with the same mm. In twenty nineteen,52300:32:23.480 --> 00:32:26.440



four years after the release of the book, Weird, New Jersey,52400:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.079



was finally able to obtain the case file, and they52500:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.119



wrote an update to their original articles showing the proof52600:32:32.200 --> 00:32:35.599



that Jeanette to Poma's death and the crime scene, long52700:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.400



believed to be the result of a satanic ritual, had52800:32:38.519 --> 00:32:42.160



nothing to do with the occults. Also in twenty nineteen,52900:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.640



Nick Salzano, a former New York private investigator, got involved53000:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.799



in Jeannette's case, and one of his big questions is53100:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.480



the narrative of the dog just happening across Jeanette's arm.53200:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.079



He believes that the arm was planted somewhere for someone53300:32:57.119 --> 00:32:59.960



to find, given that the location of her body would53400:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.119



so hidden and so hard to get to, although he53500:33:03.240 --> 00:33:07.960



also isn't ruling out the occult theory, specifically because of53600:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.839



Newell and the list murders. So Zana also positioned the53700:33:11.920 --> 00:33:15.039



Union County Prosecutor's office to exhum Genet's body in the53800:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.640



hopes that advancements in forensic technology could lead to more answers,53900:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.000



but this was denied on the grounds that he had54000:33:22.039 --> 00:33:25.880



no standing in the Dupama case. After twenty nineteen, though,54100:33:25.880 --> 00:33:28.480



there has been no real movement in her case, and54200:33:28.880 --> 00:33:32.599



I do think that the sensationalism surrounding her death hindered54300:33:32.680 --> 00:33:36.960



the investigation. They wasted. They are already limited resources on54400:33:37.160 --> 00:33:40.559



chasing demons, and now fifty three years later, there's still54500:33:40.559 --> 00:33:41.279



no answers.54600:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.519



Something's in the usual detail in this case. The first54700:33:44.519 --> 00:33:46.960



time I heard about this case that opens both the54800:33:47.000 --> 00:33:51.160



book and also one of the first documents in the54900:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.640



case file that you were able to get a hold55000:33:53.680 --> 00:33:57.160



of from Union County, is this story of a dog?55100:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.000



Something I'm curious about. How how did dog get up there?55200:34:01.240 --> 00:34:01.359



Like?55300:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.680



What is this? This is a small domestic animal, Her55400:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.759



body is largely kind of intact. What did you make55500:34:07.799 --> 00:34:09.679



about that story? The first time I heard this, I55600:34:09.719 --> 00:34:11.760



wasn't even sure if that was a real think or55700:34:11.800 --> 00:34:13.880



if that was part of the folklore, because it seems55800:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.880



so improbable in some ways. But it feels very cinematic,55900:34:17.920 --> 00:34:20.159



like I feel like I've seen this movie before, but56000:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.480



it was actually in the report, and the book does56100:34:23.480 --> 00:34:26.440



a good job in kind of describing that, and the56200:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.199



original police report is very vivid. But what did you56300:34:29.320 --> 00:34:33.159



make of that dog? I haven't seen too much discussion56400:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.039



of it, but it's a strange detail. And also, how56500:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.119



did the dog what is your kind of sense of56600:34:39.159 --> 00:34:42.800



like how did the dog retrieve this and bring this down?56700:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.320



This is an area that's very hard to get to, right.56800:34:46.119 --> 00:34:48.000



So there are a few things I'm confused about with56900:34:48.039 --> 00:34:52.039



the dog. Something makes sense, something's dumb. I don't know57000:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.639



what kind of dog it is. I don't know if57100:34:53.679 --> 00:34:55.760



it's a big dog. I don't know if it's like57200:34:55.880 --> 00:34:58.559



a retriever. I don't know if it's like I grew57300:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.079



up with beagles, and you could not take the hunts57400:35:01.119 --> 00:35:03.159



out of my dogs. They had never been hunting in57500:35:03.199 --> 00:35:05.480



their lives. But you could not take the hunts out57600:35:05.480 --> 00:35:07.760



of that dog. She'd catch birds out of the air.57700:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.239



Do I think there are some dogs that come hell57800:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.559



or high water if they'd like smelled something, would have57900:35:16.159 --> 00:35:22.440



managed to get up there and find remains and bring58000:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.000



it back to their owner, like look what I found. Yes, However,58100:35:27.719 --> 00:35:30.239



I don't know why the dog was in that general area.58200:35:30.440 --> 00:35:33.639



I don't know if obviously like the owner was not58300:35:33.840 --> 00:35:39.079



like walking the dog, because she would have found she58400:35:39.119 --> 00:35:42.239



would have said that she found like the arm, but58500:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.079



she didn't. She said the dog came back with the arm.58600:35:46.360 --> 00:35:48.280



So I don't know how the dog would have gotten58700:35:48.320 --> 00:35:52.960



up there, which is why nixls on. A theory of58800:35:53.000 --> 00:35:58.800



the arm being planted kind of makes sense. But why58900:35:59.599 --> 00:36:03.199



because no one from what I could tell, no one59000:36:03.320 --> 00:36:06.679



is really looking for Jenett. Besides like maybe her family police,59100:36:06.760 --> 00:36:10.199



I don't think we're really actively looking. It is reasonable59200:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.599



to believe that no one would have found her body59300:36:12.639 --> 00:36:17.440



for like longer then it took to find her had59400:36:17.480 --> 00:36:19.719



the dog not found the arm. So if the arm59500:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.159



was planted, what was the purpose of that.59600:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.800



And it's also strange because, as you mentioned, they did59700:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.320



do in their version of an autopsy, they did take59800:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.239



an X ray reportedly right of the body. And it's59900:36:34.320 --> 00:36:39.119



interesting that if the rest of the skeleton was largely intact,60000:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.960



they didn't report any kind of, you know, any damage60100:36:43.000 --> 00:36:46.320



really to all, No fractures of the bones, no kinds60200:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.559



of knife wounds or kind of bullet wounds that were60300:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.880



at least at the level of the bone. But if60400:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.079



her body was intact, let's say, when this dog kind60500:36:53.079 --> 00:36:56.119



of came across it, the idea that the dog would60600:36:56.159 --> 00:37:00.519



be able to kind of remove this entire like you know,60700:37:00.559 --> 00:37:03.960



appendage and take it down someone else, and the body60800:37:03.960 --> 00:37:08.159



itself is largely otherwise intact. Without any proof of any60900:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.280



kind of damage to the bones, it seems like it61000:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.239



also seems kind of like a stretch, right.61100:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.079



Yeah, it's weird that they didn't note any like animal61200:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.360



activity because, like they said that her body was heavily61300:37:19.400 --> 00:37:23.920



degraded or heavily decomposed, which makes sense as to why61400:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.840



like a dog would be able to remove the arm,61500:37:25.920 --> 00:37:28.199



because all that's attaching her bone, you know, there is61600:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.199



a muscle and tissue and sinew and if that's gone61700:37:31.480 --> 00:37:35.440



did enough and holding it together. But if there was61800:37:35.559 --> 00:37:41.079



animal activity outside of insect activity, which they did confirm61900:37:41.199 --> 00:37:43.679



because the clothes were covered in like maggots and larvae,62000:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.039



there's no mention of that in the autopsy at all,62100:37:48.079 --> 00:37:53.440



and they didn't do any other tests besides X raying62200:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.320



to show what kind of damage. Although if she was strangled,62300:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.239



which is a possibility, you know, just because as the62400:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.159



hyoid bone isn't broken, doesn't mean someone wasn't strangled, and62500:38:04.159 --> 00:38:06.639



I talked about that a million times before. Ko. You62600:38:06.679 --> 00:38:10.840



can strangle someone without damaging the hyoid bone. But it's62700:38:10.920 --> 00:38:15.519



just it's weird that there was no evidence of animal62800:38:15.559 --> 00:38:20.920



activity at all. Allegedly maybe there was, and doctor Ehrenberg62900:38:21.039 --> 00:38:24.079



didn't write it down, which is possible because he wasn't63000:38:24.079 --> 00:38:27.559



a pathologist. But it's a weird detail not to mention63100:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.079



because it could it could potentially skew the results of63200:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.440



the extray if he didn't know how to differentiate between63300:38:35.320 --> 00:38:41.880



damage from animals and like a regular fracture, like a63400:38:41.960 --> 00:38:44.199



stab wound kind of thing.63500:38:45.320 --> 00:38:47.000



Because it seems like that would be a detail that63600:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.000



would be at least something that would be more easily63700:38:50.440 --> 00:38:53.039



confirmable than some of the things that kind of come63800:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.880



up later. There's a focus in the reports that are63900:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.800



sent to the FBI, even like wanting to have a64000:38:59.800 --> 00:39:02.559



sen so of the lead levels becomes an issue in64100:39:02.599 --> 00:39:06.039



this case that there's at least at one point some64200:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.880



curiosity on the part of the prosecutor's office about how64300:39:09.920 --> 00:39:13.400



to interpret the amount of lead that was allegedly in64400:39:13.440 --> 00:39:17.360



her system. But as you mentioned, I mean those levels64500:39:17.360 --> 00:39:19.960



were ultimately not lethal, but it seems like a strange64600:39:20.360 --> 00:39:23.199



detail to focus a lot of attention on whether you64700:39:23.199 --> 00:39:28.400



know that lead can cause different neurological issues and other64800:39:28.519 --> 00:39:31.920



kinds of things, examining her kind of victimology and behavior64900:39:31.960 --> 00:39:33.960



in the days leading up with their kind of proof65000:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.480



of lead here, where As you mentioned, like, the level65100:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.639



of kind of contamination that we have in this crime65200:39:40.679 --> 00:39:44.840



scene is really not comparable to anything I've ever seen.65300:39:45.199 --> 00:39:49.360



I think that the image of the clothing that was65400:39:49.440 --> 00:39:52.840



ultimately sent off to the FBI being hunk beside the65500:39:53.000 --> 00:39:56.599



HVAC system for days, I think four to five days65600:39:56.800 --> 00:39:59.599



was the report, is really staggering. Have you ever seen65700:39:59.599 --> 00:40:00.639



anything like that before.65800:40:01.840 --> 00:40:08.239



I've literally never seen that before. I don't understand why65900:40:08.280 --> 00:40:14.880



that was the thought process. There's incompetency and there's stupidity,66000:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.159



and there are two entirely different things. But you can66100:40:19.199 --> 00:40:21.719



be both incompetent and stupid at the same time, and66200:40:22.239 --> 00:40:27.559



Springfield PD or Union County they were both incompetent and stupid.66300:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.199



And I've never seen so many things that were done66400:40:32.199 --> 00:40:36.920



wrong in an investigation from like the get go, what66500:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.039



do you mean that you're going to put the arm66600:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.239



in a refrigerator in your break room because the chain66700:40:42.280 --> 00:40:44.519



of command is already broken. Can't follow the chain of66800:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.000



command first person to have the arm as a dog,66900:40:48.159 --> 00:40:49.800



I can't put that in a report. What do you mean?67000:40:49.920 --> 00:40:51.800



What does that mean? You put that in the report?67100:40:51.840 --> 00:40:54.719



The dog had the arm. Damage to the arm could67200:40:54.760 --> 00:40:59.320



have come from the dog, Like I don't understand. I67300:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.559



don't understand. And the thought process of just throwing the67400:41:02.559 --> 00:41:08.079



clothes on this HVAC system, and like I get it,67500:41:08.119 --> 00:41:09.960



you have to dry the clothes. You can't throw them67600:41:09.960 --> 00:41:12.199



in a dryer. You know you're gonna have to air67700:41:12.320 --> 00:41:14.880



dry them. But there are ways to do that without67800:41:15.679 --> 00:41:19.559



further contaminating evidence by throwing it on a dirty age67900:41:19.559 --> 00:41:24.360



back system. That doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't68000:41:24.400 --> 00:41:28.320



make sense that they wasted three or four weeks of68100:41:28.360 --> 00:41:36.440



the investigation on chasing demons or witches or Satanists and68200:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.400



looking at I could almost understand looking at Patrick Niboll's68300:41:40.440 --> 00:41:46.440



case because it was very clearly related to Satan, But68400:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.639



the list murders had nothing to do with the occult.68500:41:49.119 --> 00:41:53.480



And it's borderline insulting that they're even insinuating that a68600:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.400



man murdered his entire family, his daughter. Whether or not68700:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.960



she was interested in the occult or not, has nothing68800:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.760



to do with that. Their thought processes. The entire investigation68900:42:03.880 --> 00:42:04.519



makes no sense.69000:42:04.559 --> 00:42:06.559



And then they gave up after like a month, which69100:42:06.559 --> 00:42:07.920



I got it, there wasn't a lot to go on,69200:42:08.719 --> 00:42:12.239



but you gave up after like a month the whole69300:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.800



investigation so like three of her Actually the only real69400:42:15.840 --> 00:42:18.440



investigation was like when they first found her body, and69500:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.239



that was like from the time they found her body69600:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.719



to the time they conducted the autopsy was five hours.69700:42:24.920 --> 00:42:27.159



What do you mean when this.69800:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.400



Role of like of trying to ferret these details out,69900:42:30.519 --> 00:42:33.440



like what's happening on the investigative side, but also just70000:42:33.559 --> 00:42:36.719



confusion in terms of the victimology of who Jeanette de70100:42:36.840 --> 00:42:41.079



Poma actually was. I feel like religion, as you know70200:42:41.119 --> 00:42:45.280



we were talking about earlier occupies this really confusing space70300:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.039



in this story because on one hand, there's the Satanism70400:42:49.159 --> 00:42:53.800



which emerges, but then there's the Jesus freak element that's there,70500:42:54.199 --> 00:42:57.800



and then there's a witch that's brought in. And it's70600:42:57.840 --> 00:43:01.800



weird to me these conflating between like like what is70700:43:01.840 --> 00:43:05.760



the contribution that we're you're supposed to make about confirming Satanism.70800:43:06.199 --> 00:43:08.599



It seems like a lot of different things are being70900:43:08.679 --> 00:43:12.079



kind of conflated here, and all of them have like71000:43:12.239 --> 00:43:14.239



one thing in common, and that these are a lot71100:43:14.280 --> 00:43:17.679



of like youth focused movements and the kind of new71200:43:17.719 --> 00:43:20.840



religions are coming out of during this time. And it71300:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.199



seems like regardless of whether that is labeled as Jesus71400:43:24.280 --> 00:43:27.199



freak or either Satanism or kind of whatever that is,71500:43:28.719 --> 00:43:31.000



all of these just seem kind of generally kind of71600:43:31.159 --> 00:43:35.159



threatening and kind of out of place right exactly.71700:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.400



And all of these things being related is one thing,71800:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.119



But how are they related to, like to her death,71900:43:42.039 --> 00:43:46.079



because looking at the case file, reading the case file,72000:43:47.119 --> 00:43:51.719



there's no correlation at all. And I feel like they72100:43:51.760 --> 00:43:58.320



were trying really hard to make these pieces fit together72200:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.159



when they had nothing to do with them. And even72300:44:01.800 --> 00:44:05.519



the pastor tried to make an argument. He had said72400:44:05.599 --> 00:44:08.440



something along the lines of this, and this is back72500:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.760



when he's singing Jeanette's praises and about how wonderful and72600:44:11.800 --> 00:44:16.320



is abaut she is that she, in his opinion, she72700:44:16.519 --> 00:44:19.320



most likely came upon a group of Satanists and tried72800:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.039



to preach to them the word of God, and they72900:44:22.159 --> 00:44:26.639



killed her for it, which is also a massive stretch.73000:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.880



Well, it's odd that there's this ritualistic there's killing someone,73100:44:30.920 --> 00:44:34.639



like you said, and then there's a kind of ritualistic sacrifice,73200:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.119



which is, you know, the allegation, which seems a bit73300:44:37.159 --> 00:44:40.239



more formal. And when we think about even just the73400:44:40.360 --> 00:44:43.719



lack of evidence of any kind of knife wounds or73500:44:43.760 --> 00:44:46.159



whatever else, like, it doesn't seem like being strangled at73600:44:46.199 --> 00:44:50.559



the top of the hill is very much a ritualistic sacrifice, right, Oh,73700:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.880



it doesn't, at least not by the Hollywood standards that73800:44:52.920 --> 00:44:54.559



many of their fears are kind of pulling from. I73900:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.239



don't remember that movie where the Satanists are engaging in74000:44:57.280 --> 00:44:59.519



a deep ritual when they strangle someone on an altar,74100:44:59.719 --> 00:45:01.280



Like I don't think I've ever seen that in the74200:45:01.280 --> 00:45:02.480



film that.74300:45:02.760 --> 00:45:06.480



No, that doesn't happen. And it's like in other cases74400:45:06.519 --> 00:45:13.039



I covered involving murders that have to do with Satanic rituals.74500:45:13.360 --> 00:45:18.159



Beasts of Satan. What did they do? They ran her74600:45:18.199 --> 00:45:19.920



through with a knife. They stabbed her in the heart74700:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.559



with a knife. Okay, after getting high on LSD and74800:45:23.159 --> 00:45:26.119



stuff like. That's besides the point. They stabbed her in74900:45:26.119 --> 00:45:28.639



the heart with a knife, dipped a cigarette and blood75000:45:28.679 --> 00:45:31.920



and then smoked it. That is more the idea of75100:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.039



what a really twisted version of a Satanic ritual is.75200:45:37.119 --> 00:45:42.199



Jeanette to Palma's body being found on a cliff with75300:45:42.400 --> 00:45:44.639



no obvious physical signs.75400:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.119



Clothes too, yeah, clothes.75500:45:47.920 --> 00:45:49.599



I think what a lot of it had to do75600:45:49.719 --> 00:45:53.239



with is the fact that she was found in Devil's teeth.75700:45:53.800 --> 00:45:54.199



Mm hmm.75800:45:55.360 --> 00:45:59.800



You call something devil's teeth. Yeah, people are automatically going75900:45:59.840 --> 00:46:03.440



to go Satan is involved in some way, and that's76000:46:03.480 --> 00:46:06.400



just the name. I mean, it's a weird it's not76100:46:06.440 --> 00:46:08.760



even a weird rock formation. It had to do with76200:46:08.920 --> 00:46:12.280



like there's a whole backstory to the Devil's teeth that76300:46:12.360 --> 00:46:18.039



has nothing to do with Satan at all. It's just76400:46:18.159 --> 00:46:22.559



like a weird, quirky name. They gave this cliff because76500:46:22.599 --> 00:46:26.519



of rocks and stuff that were like placed around the76600:46:26.639 --> 00:46:29.119



edge of this quarry or something, and it kind of76700:46:29.119 --> 00:46:31.880



looked like teeth, so they went, it's the Devil's teeth.76800:46:32.119 --> 00:46:34.360



That's all it was. It had nothing to do with Satan.76900:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.599



It was just like quirky name. It is what it is.77000:46:38.039 --> 00:46:40.519



So I think her being found there contributed a lot77100:46:40.559 --> 00:46:42.880



to the rumors of Satanism, besides the fact that the77200:46:42.920 --> 00:46:47.440



police made really stupid comments about, oh this these rocks77300:46:47.599 --> 00:46:51.000



that are here kind of looks like an altar that's demonic?77400:46:52.039 --> 00:46:52.920



Who says that?77500:46:53.840 --> 00:46:57.239



Would you see this case as one in which there77600:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.119



is a lot of let's say, fear or tension in77700:47:00.320 --> 00:47:03.119



the town that just kind of a lot of that77800:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.360



comes out like and is projected onto her death or77900:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.800



do you see her death is kind of raising new fears.78000:47:09.840 --> 00:47:11.639



It didn't exist in the town before.78100:47:12.360 --> 00:47:15.639



So New Jersey in the seventies was kind of a78200:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.239



weird place. You did have like there was an active78300:47:19.960 --> 00:47:26.280



coven culled something in New Jersey at that time, kind78400:47:26.320 --> 00:47:30.559



of close to Springfield. They weren't, as I said, like78500:47:30.639 --> 00:47:34.360



really passive. I mean they did they followed like kind78600:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.599



of the Church of Satan's ideals and stuff, but they78700:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.039



were very they mean, they weren't violent in any way.78800:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.000



They weren't aggressive in anyway. They were just kind of78900:47:42.000 --> 00:47:44.920



like doing their thing. So you would that you had79000:47:44.960 --> 00:47:51.920



this uptick in Pentecostalism and evangelicals and all of that.79100:47:52.920 --> 00:47:55.519



You had, you know, these deaths that were happening in79200:47:55.599 --> 00:48:00.360



quick succession that were like major deals. You know, Janet's79300:48:00.360 --> 00:48:01.719



Palm was a big deal, the List murders was a79400:48:01.719 --> 00:48:05.000



big deal. Pawsharkknwell was a big deal because it was79500:48:05.039 --> 00:48:07.639



directly related to Saianism. So I think there was a79600:48:07.639 --> 00:48:10.360



lot of fear. But also the area she lived in79700:48:10.559 --> 00:48:13.400



was very religious. It was very very religious. It was79800:48:14.199 --> 00:48:21.559



predominantly Jewish and Roman Catholic, predominantly white. Things were very quiet,79900:48:21.599 --> 00:48:23.719



it was very like, not like a sleepy town, but80000:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.880



very well to do, very up and coming, very on80100:48:26.920 --> 00:48:30.199



the border of being upper class, not just or not80200:48:30.320 --> 00:48:34.119



upper middle class. So they already kind of side eyed80300:48:35.079 --> 00:48:38.960



things that were not the status quo. So if you80400:48:39.000 --> 00:48:42.920



were like a little rebellious, or you were a little hippie,80500:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.280



or you were a little not religious, they already looked80600:48:46.320 --> 00:48:51.159



at you weird. And they were very critical of people80700:48:51.320 --> 00:49:00.440



not following the expectations of their societal expectations. So then80800:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.079



you have Jeanette getting murdered, and the immediate assumption is80900:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.360



that it's demonic in some way, and I think people81000:49:07.360 --> 00:49:10.000



were like really freaking out, and that's part of what81100:49:10.119 --> 00:49:12.039



fuels I think a lot of the rumors about her,81200:49:12.239 --> 00:49:14.519



you know, of course she died. Of course this happened81300:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.159



to her because she was really promiscuous. Of Course she81400:49:17.280 --> 00:49:21.039



died because she was doing all these drugs, even though81500:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.719



there was no proof of that anywhere. Of Course, she81600:49:23.880 --> 00:49:27.840



was killed because she was off hitchhiking in the middle81700:49:27.840 --> 00:49:29.920



of the night to go like hook up with some guy.81800:49:31.159 --> 00:49:34.920



Very victim blame me. But also they were afraid that81900:49:35.480 --> 00:49:40.599



Satanists had just kind of converged on this relatively smallish town.82000:49:40.920 --> 00:49:43.920



It's unusual. This case begins with this like unusual story82100:49:43.920 --> 00:49:47.679



about a dog finding a bone. But it also, you know,82200:49:47.800 --> 00:49:52.559



it seems like some of these unusual features obscure, some82300:49:53.079 --> 00:49:56.559



just questions that are very difficult to explain or get around.82400:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.639



How did Jeanette get up on this cliff? What was82500:49:59.679 --> 00:50:02.400



she doing there? If we were to think about the82600:50:02.400 --> 00:50:04.800



theory that the police were operating under at one point,82700:50:04.840 --> 00:50:09.159



that she overdosed and she was using drugs, it seems82800:50:09.199 --> 00:50:10.920



like a very out of the way place when you're82900:50:10.920 --> 00:50:16.559



wearing flip flops to go in the night to use drugs,83000:50:16.760 --> 00:50:18.559



because you're still gonna have to come back down at83100:50:18.559 --> 00:50:20.440



the end of all that too. It's very difficult, it's83200:50:20.519 --> 00:50:23.880



very difficult terrain. If you go with the idea that83300:50:24.320 --> 00:50:29.000



she's murdered, whether ritualistic or non ritualistic, there is at83400:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.599



least some degree of coercion that's going to be involved83500:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.719



to get her up to the top of this peak.83600:50:35.159 --> 00:50:39.199



But you're still left with the question of why and83700:50:39.280 --> 00:50:44.599



how did that actually occur, because as you mentioned earlier83800:50:45.039 --> 00:50:48.199



that this is even wearing hiking boots and proper equipment,83900:50:48.360 --> 00:50:51.679



this is very difficult terrain to traverse.84000:50:53.000 --> 00:50:56.440



Exactly her being up on that cliff. I don't understand84100:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.719



how she got there. She couldn't have done it by herself,84200:50:58.760 --> 00:51:00.559



not in flip flops. I don't belie that. Not in84300:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.800



the dark. You know they didn't. I mean, it's if84400:51:03.840 --> 00:51:09.039



she had, say, a flashlight with her maybe. But also84500:51:09.159 --> 00:51:13.719



the timeline is skewed because what time was this. This84600:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.400



wasn't I don't believe this. She went up there in84700:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.039



the middle of the day. But I also don't know84800:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.199



if she ever made it to her job when she84900:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.360



originally left the house that day. If Robin Ludaki is85000:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.280



correct in that she picked her up, whether it be85100:51:28.360 --> 00:51:31.599



eight thirty or eleven o'clock at night, and brought her85200:51:31.719 --> 00:51:34.599



close to this area. Can't climb up that cliff in85300:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.119



the dark, not in flip flops. There was no evidence85400:51:38.159 --> 00:51:40.400



of any sort of like flashlight or anything like that85500:51:40.480 --> 00:51:44.519



with her, And even if she did have one, I85600:51:44.519 --> 00:51:47.559



can't imagine her having one with her, because Robin Ludaki85700:51:47.599 --> 00:51:50.159



didn't say that. If the girl she picked up was85800:51:50.239 --> 00:51:53.639



Jennett to Pama, there was no Nobody said she had85900:51:53.679 --> 00:51:55.880



a flashlight with her. There was no evidence of one.86000:51:56.079 --> 00:51:58.159



Even if she did have one, I don't believe it86100:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.960



would have fit in her purse because she had a86200:52:00.960 --> 00:52:04.000



bunch of stuff in her purse already. Most sixteen year86300:52:04.000 --> 00:52:06.679



old girls are not carrying around big old bags. They're86400:52:06.679 --> 00:52:12.239



carrying small persons that fit their essentials, and her essentials86500:52:12.440 --> 00:52:14.960



was some make up the column because all she did86600:52:15.039 --> 00:52:16.639



was she brushed her hair a million times a day.86700:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.639



Her sisters and her friends all said that, like every86800:52:19.679 --> 00:52:21.639



single day, multiple times a day. She had brush her86900:52:21.639 --> 00:52:23.679



hair because she was so afraid of it getting frizzy87000:52:23.719 --> 00:52:25.440



and curly, because she wanted her hair to be straight,87100:52:25.840 --> 00:52:28.639



tissues that fix and hailer. There was a bottle of87200:52:28.679 --> 00:52:31.280



medication that they also found. I think because she had87300:52:31.280 --> 00:52:35.239



a cold at the time she went missing, and then87400:52:35.280 --> 00:52:38.960



this vial, Like there's no roof for a flashlight. They87500:52:39.000 --> 00:52:41.960



didn't find one there, So I don't believe she went87600:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.519



up by herself. She wouldn't been able to suit in87700:52:43.519 --> 00:52:47.559



the dark in flip flops. Someone had to have been87800:52:47.559 --> 00:52:49.320



with her. But even then, I don't think it would87900:52:49.360 --> 00:52:53.400



have been one person, because in the dark, trying to88000:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.239



pull a girl up the side of a cliff, you know,88100:52:56.840 --> 00:52:59.360



obviously they're not scaling the cliff they went around, but like,88200:52:59.400 --> 00:53:02.880



there's a lot of foliage was super overgrown, there's down88300:53:03.000 --> 00:53:06.400



logs all over the place. That's hard to do, trying88400:53:06.440 --> 00:53:09.239



to I'm sure, like holding her hands so she knew88500:53:09.239 --> 00:53:11.960



where she was going. That's hard to do with one person.88600:53:12.599 --> 00:53:15.639



The likelihood is there was probably more than one. But88700:53:15.760 --> 00:53:18.880



even then, what reason would they have had to go88800:53:18.960 --> 00:53:23.000



up there in the first place at either you know, eight, nine, ten,88900:53:23.119 --> 00:53:25.480



eleven o'clock at night. What is the reason for going89000:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.559



up there? Because there was no evidence anywhere that they89100:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.880



were going up there to do drugs or party or89200:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.079



anything like that. The only thing up in that area89300:53:36.119 --> 00:53:37.719



was Jeannette and the contents of her purse.89400:53:37.760 --> 00:53:41.199



That was it, And there wasn't any notations in the89500:53:41.280 --> 00:53:43.920



area around where her body was found about kind of89600:53:44.840 --> 00:53:48.239



blood or dry what looked like obvious dry blood or89700:53:48.280 --> 00:53:49.000



anything else.89800:53:50.039 --> 00:53:54.679



Yeah, I mean, realistically, after six weeks, it's possible that89900:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.480



rain washed any trace of that away, but I don't90000:53:58.519 --> 00:54:02.400



think so, because there's no obvious marks on her body.90100:54:02.480 --> 00:54:04.599



I mean, she wasn't when they found her. She wasn't90200:54:04.960 --> 00:54:09.679



only bones there was you know, she hadn't fully decomposed yet,90300:54:09.760 --> 00:54:12.960



So there realistically could have been evidence of like stab90400:54:12.960 --> 00:54:16.320



wounds or something like that if that was the case,90500:54:16.360 --> 00:54:18.719



and they didn't find anything. So I don't think there90600:54:18.760 --> 00:54:20.920



would have been blood anywhere either.90700:54:22.679 --> 00:54:25.039



So right away we have this a situation in which90800:54:25.400 --> 00:54:28.239



we don't know the exact cause of death. We also90900:54:28.280 --> 00:54:30.760



don't know the time of death when it occurred. We91000:54:30.880 --> 00:54:33.320



know where her body was found, but we also don't91100:54:33.400 --> 00:54:38.239



understand the actual scenario of how the crime actual itself91200:54:38.360 --> 00:54:40.719



just took place, if there was a crime to begin with.91300:54:41.199 --> 00:54:44.559



Because we're still left even if it doesn't seem likely91400:54:44.719 --> 00:54:47.599



that she went up there and overdosed in or had91500:54:47.639 --> 00:54:49.840



a heart attack or something else, or some other kind91600:54:49.840 --> 00:54:53.559



of medical emergency, we can't one hundred percent rule that91700:54:53.639 --> 00:54:55.440



out with certainty either right.91800:54:56.079 --> 00:55:01.079



No, exactly. The only thing that is definitive is that91900:55:01.079 --> 00:55:03.840



at some point she ended up in that quarry. At92000:55:03.880 --> 00:55:07.119



some point, her purse disappeared, at some point her necklace disappeared.92100:55:07.679 --> 00:55:12.320



Those are the only three things, and that she died.92200:55:12.480 --> 00:55:16.559



Those are four things. She was in the quarry, she92300:55:16.880 --> 00:55:19.440



was or on the cliff in the quarry, her purse92400:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.360



is missing, her necklace is missing, and she died. Those92500:55:22.400 --> 00:55:23.880



are the only things we know. We don't know how92600:55:23.920 --> 00:55:25.639



she died. I don't know why she was there. We92700:55:25.679 --> 00:55:27.960



don't know if anyone else was with her. We don't92800:55:28.000 --> 00:55:29.639



know what time she got there. We don't know what92900:55:29.719 --> 00:55:32.440



time she died. We don't know if anyone came back93000:55:32.480 --> 00:55:34.639



to the scene to remove her arm to plant it,93100:55:35.000 --> 00:55:38.159



or if the dog did just happened to find it,93200:55:38.320 --> 00:55:42.920



or if it wasn't planted, which is fully possible that93300:55:43.000 --> 00:55:47.239



it wasn't. You know, another animal could have been scavenging,93400:55:47.920 --> 00:55:51.400



removed the arm from that area and then dropped it93500:55:51.440 --> 00:55:53.880



somewhere else and the dog picked it up. So it's93600:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.599



not even necessarily that anyone planted the arm in the93700:55:56.639 --> 00:55:59.000



hopes that someone would find her body. Maybe they were93800:55:59.039 --> 00:56:01.000



just tired of waiting for her to be found, or93900:56:01.039 --> 00:56:04.320



what y'all, maybe an animal moved it. We have literally94000:56:04.360 --> 00:56:09.599



no answers, and the only thing the police could say94100:56:09.760 --> 00:56:13.360



in the file is that they found her body. Essentially,94200:56:13.360 --> 00:56:16.280



that was it. We found her, and.94300:56:16.239 --> 00:56:19.719



We also don't know for sure going on this the94400:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.320



exact location she was killed. The presumption is that she94500:56:23.400 --> 00:56:25.239



was killed on top of that cliff, but there's a94600:56:25.239 --> 00:56:28.280



lot of different questions about like why and how that occurred.94700:56:28.719 --> 00:56:33.079



It seems highly improbable that someone murdered her and then94800:56:33.320 --> 00:56:36.320



went through the trouble to take her up to the cliff,94900:56:36.599 --> 00:56:39.559



but as you said, whether it was through whether or95000:56:39.639 --> 00:56:43.559



other things that basically helped it didn't create much of95100:56:43.599 --> 00:56:46.920



a crime scene for the original investigators. We also can't95200:56:46.960 --> 00:56:50.599



completely roll out that she was killed somewhere else. It95300:56:50.599 --> 00:56:52.280



doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. She would95400:56:52.280 --> 00:56:53.800



have been and they would have taken her up there,95500:56:54.199 --> 00:56:58.000



but we don't know for sure where the crime actually95600:56:58.039 --> 00:56:59.599



took place. If it was a crime.95700:57:00.159 --> 00:57:03.480



Exactly, it doesn't make sense for her bodies who have95800:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.559



been moved there after the fact, but we don't know95900:57:06.679 --> 00:57:10.199



for certain either way. They don't know, and they didn't96000:57:10.239 --> 00:57:14.760



do a real investigation. And then there's no statements in96100:57:14.800 --> 00:57:17.840



the case file either from like the family or friends96200:57:17.920 --> 00:57:22.000



or anything. Anything quoted by anybody came from the media96300:57:22.280 --> 00:57:25.599



or the book or Weirdy Jersey that's where all of96400:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000



those quotes came from. There are no witness statements besides96500:57:29.159 --> 00:57:32.559



Robin Ludeki's or evidence of them going through the process96600:57:32.599 --> 00:57:37.920



of victimology at all in the case file whatsoever, which96700:57:37.960 --> 00:57:41.920



is super weird because at minimum, even if she wasn't murdered,96800:57:41.920 --> 00:57:45.400



it's a suspicious death. She was sixteen. Most sixteen year96900:57:45.400 --> 00:57:48.480



olds don't just drop dead, so it's weird. It's very weird.97000:57:49.280 --> 00:57:53.360



And it's a little weird that the family was still97100:57:53.480 --> 00:57:58.840



so private after, like they wouldn't talk at all, because97200:57:58.840 --> 00:58:02.760



most of the quotes now from her sister, Cindy, her nephew,97300:58:03.559 --> 00:58:07.760



and I think like maybe a niece that's it. That's97400:58:07.800 --> 00:58:09.280



just a little weird to me.97500:58:10.119 --> 00:58:13.119



And this question of motive, then we were left with97600:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.079



like at least two very big buckets of possibilities. We97700:58:17.159 --> 00:58:20.199



have is someone who knew or someone who did not97800:58:20.400 --> 00:58:23.159



know her. Right, if it's someone who did not know her,97900:58:23.880 --> 00:58:28.079



why this particular location, which seems very specific at this98000:58:28.239 --> 00:58:31.960



time of night to kind of maneuver someone to and98100:58:32.000 --> 00:58:34.280



maybe would assume some kind of prior knowledge of the area.98200:58:34.320 --> 00:58:36.039



It doesn't sund like this is something you just end98300:58:36.119 --> 00:58:39.360



up at the top of this cliff randomly, some familiarity98400:58:39.400 --> 00:58:43.000



with the area or someone who knew her, in which98500:58:43.079 --> 00:58:48.320



case that victimology you're getting to would be incredibly important.98600:58:48.440 --> 00:58:52.079



But rather in victimology we have a lot of speculation98700:58:52.360 --> 00:58:55.760



from mostly adults who were in her life, whether it98800:58:55.880 --> 00:58:58.840



is the dentist who would produce fillings a few weeks98900:58:58.880 --> 00:59:03.320



before her death, who id iifies her and has suggestions99000:59:03.440 --> 00:59:07.760



about her hanging out with the wrong crowd, or whether99100:59:07.840 --> 00:59:11.480



that is a pastor who you know is another like99200:59:11.559 --> 00:59:15.119



adult figure in her life. It seems like we're really99300:59:15.280 --> 00:59:20.800



missing a lot of key information surrounding her actual friends99400:59:20.840 --> 00:59:23.880



group versus the kind of alleged friends group, and her99500:59:24.000 --> 00:59:27.360



kinds of you know, her interactions with those individuals in99600:59:27.400 --> 00:59:29.159



the weeks and months leading up to her death.99700:59:29.760 --> 00:59:33.599



There's no information on what was going on before she99800:59:33.719 --> 00:59:37.760



died at all. The only thing you could say she99900:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.679



was active in her church or relatively active in her church,100000:59:40.920 --> 00:59:43.199



but even then there's no date for that. What she's100100:59:43.239 --> 00:59:45.920



still like really active right before the Murner I know100200:59:46.039 --> 00:59:49.320



she was active in like nineteen seventy because that's when100300:59:49.360 --> 00:59:53.159



she started going to the church, But after that, I100400:59:53.199 --> 00:59:59.440



don't know. We know from her cousin that she did100500:59:59.800 --> 01:00:03.599



care hike sometimes to go and meet up with guys.100601:00:03.719 --> 01:00:07.039



But was she seeing a particular guy like right before100701:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.719



she died, We don't know any of that. We don't100801:00:09.760 --> 01:00:13.119



know if because she didn't get along with some of100901:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.719



the girls in her grade because she was preppy and101001:00:15.800 --> 01:00:18.920



popular and like really pretty, some of the girls in101101:00:18.960 --> 01:00:20.599



her class didn't like her. Did she have like a101201:00:20.599 --> 01:00:22.760



big blowout with one of the girls in her class101301:00:22.840 --> 01:00:25.360



right before not that I think, you know, a teenage101401:00:25.360 --> 01:00:30.760



girl killed her, But that adds to the victimology. Is101501:00:30.800 --> 01:00:35.639



there any sort of basis for Jesse Pollock serial killer theory?101601:00:36.840 --> 01:00:44.199



I don't know. Maybe possibly because Marianne and Lorraine were101701:00:44.320 --> 01:00:51.199



killed really far from Springfield. Springfield is over an hour101801:00:52.800 --> 01:00:57.679



from me, and Modfail, where they were killed, is like101901:00:57.760 --> 01:01:02.119



fifteen twenty minutes from where I live, So that's far.102001:01:02.639 --> 01:01:04.280



I mean, it was two years after the fact that102101:01:04.280 --> 01:01:10.320



that's still far, and I don't know how far you102201:01:10.320 --> 01:01:13.760



know a potential serial killer is going to travel, especially102301:01:13.760 --> 01:01:18.679



if their usual victim is a thin, brunette, white teenage girl.102401:01:19.000 --> 01:01:21.440



There's a lot of those in New Jersey. You don't102501:01:21.480 --> 01:01:23.159



have to travel like that far out of the way102601:01:24.000 --> 01:01:26.119



to find someone matching that description if you're going to102701:01:26.199 --> 01:01:29.760



murder them kind of thing. It's possible there's a serial102801:01:29.880 --> 01:01:32.360



killer running around. It's possible she was the victim of102901:01:32.360 --> 01:01:36.760



a serial killer. But again that seems a bit of103001:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.840



a stretch just because of where her body was found.103101:01:39.119 --> 01:01:40.960



That's a lot of effort to bring someone up to103201:01:40.960 --> 01:01:41.480



that quarry.103301:01:42.559 --> 01:01:44.159



And so is this a case do you think where103401:01:44.199 --> 01:01:47.920



we have too many possibilities of suspects and outcomes And103501:01:47.960 --> 01:01:51.599



maybe that's part of the kind of enduring interest in it,103601:01:51.880 --> 01:01:54.840



or it seems like the police didn't really do like103701:01:54.920 --> 01:01:57.960



anyone in favor in terms of having a better sense103801:01:57.960 --> 01:02:00.159



of what happened in this case with the investigation. And103901:02:00.239 --> 01:02:03.840



you know, as you mentioned the armstored and the refrigerator,104001:02:03.880 --> 01:02:08.360



the fact that the autopsy was done at a funeral home,104101:02:08.360 --> 01:02:12.159



which is built for very different needs. Then a forensic104201:02:12.280 --> 01:02:15.800



examination is going to take place. You're left to wonder104301:02:15.840 --> 01:02:21.800



about the level of potential contamination at the funeral home.104401:02:21.880 --> 01:02:24.000



You're left to wonder. And it seems like if this104501:02:24.119 --> 01:02:29.039



was a serial killer, the department itself wasn't necessarily going104601:02:29.159 --> 01:02:31.599



to be kind of up for that challenge. Just given104701:02:31.639 --> 01:02:36.639



all these different kinds of limitations and lack of resources,104801:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.039



it seems like, yeah.104901:02:38.880 --> 01:02:41.199



If there was a serial killer running around Springfield PD105001:02:41.400 --> 01:02:46.800



was critically under equipped to deal with it. It's weird105101:02:46.840 --> 01:02:51.239



that her, for lack of a better term, autopsy was105201:02:51.280 --> 01:02:54.119



conducted in a funeral home. Because Union County has a105301:02:54.199 --> 01:02:57.840



medical Examiner's office, they have a facility to do that,105401:02:58.519 --> 01:03:02.719



so it's weird that they brought her to the funeral home.105501:03:02.800 --> 01:03:05.920



It doesn't make any sense. It's weird that they had105601:03:06.199 --> 01:03:11.679



a regular physician. Sometimes small towns do that with like105701:03:11.719 --> 01:03:17.000



I understand that, but this was the Union County appointed105801:03:17.599 --> 01:03:21.400



medical examiner kind of thing. Like he was elected into105901:03:21.440 --> 01:03:24.000



this position. Why did you elect just a regular doctor.106001:03:25.239 --> 01:03:28.920



I mean, you could have elected someone with more qualifications106101:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.599



than just a position. But I also think that there's106201:03:32.719 --> 01:03:36.639



too many variables because they didn't do a good enough job.106301:03:37.239 --> 01:03:38.880



It's not even that they didn't do a good enough job.106401:03:38.880 --> 01:03:44.760



They didn't do their job really at all. There's no suspects,106501:03:45.000 --> 01:03:48.159



there's no real evidence because they didn't have any of106601:03:48.480 --> 01:03:52.039



They didn't have all of the evidence tested. They allegedly106701:03:52.079 --> 01:03:57.239



did a toxicology test, but there's no evidence of that.106801:03:57.920 --> 01:04:01.239



There's no report. There's only the notation that they found106901:04:01.320 --> 01:04:03.840



lad As far as I can tell, they didn't talk107001:04:03.880 --> 01:04:05.920



to any witnesses that. Maybe I don't have the whole file,107101:04:06.360 --> 01:04:07.960



but what they gave me is what they gave everyone107201:04:07.960 --> 01:04:10.559



else that asked for it, So I don't know. You know,107301:04:10.679 --> 01:04:14.480



if the family wants to exhume her body, maybe they107401:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.800



can do additional testing and maybe they would find something.107501:04:18.400 --> 01:04:25.360



At minimum, doing a new examination of her remains could107601:04:25.639 --> 01:04:29.400



maybe find something. Maybe it'll find nothing, but at least107701:04:29.400 --> 01:04:32.719



at that point you're trying, and it's been fifty three years.107801:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.639



It's not going to hurt to examine the case again.107901:04:37.599 --> 01:04:40.199



But there's just there's too many variables like this is108001:04:40.239 --> 01:04:41.760



the case. I don't know if they'll ever solve. I108101:04:41.760 --> 01:04:46.440



don't think they will because they didn't do enough on108201:04:46.599 --> 01:04:52.519



day one, in the first five hours of their investigation,108301:04:53.039 --> 01:04:56.639



with massive air quotes around that because it wasn't an investigation, like, well,108401:04:56.679 --> 01:04:59.079



let's be real, you didn't do anything. You brought a108501:04:59.119 --> 01:05:03.960



witch out to look around. I guess allegedly you waste108601:05:04.000 --> 01:05:09.400



the time looking at other murders that had nothing to108701:05:09.480 --> 01:05:11.719



do with it. If you want to say, the list108801:05:11.840 --> 01:05:14.880



murders make some semblance of sense because it's only like108901:05:14.920 --> 01:05:17.880



five miles away. Sure, but Patrick Newell's murder made no109001:05:18.039 --> 01:05:20.239



sense to look at he was killed two hours away.109101:05:20.960 --> 01:05:24.239



So there's too many variables and way too many aud109201:05:24.239 --> 01:05:25.599



answer questions.109301:05:26.639 --> 01:05:28.599



And so at this point in time, all of the109401:05:29.079 --> 01:05:31.719



kinds of there's a long list of questions that were109501:05:31.800 --> 01:05:35.079



kind of this case raises. But the questions are one109601:05:35.199 --> 01:05:39.480



in which you know, because of that early investigation, even109701:05:39.599 --> 01:05:44.199



with contemporary forensics, it seems like we don't necessarily have109801:05:44.960 --> 01:05:49.639



the ability to answer many of those questions now, right, That's.109901:05:49.480 --> 01:05:53.440



What I would think. I mean, if they even have it,110001:05:53.480 --> 01:05:58.039



because who knows if they have the evidence that they110101:05:58.079 --> 01:06:03.039



originally collected or was stains and stuff on her clothing110201:06:04.360 --> 01:06:07.880



it was too degraded to be tested in seventy two.110301:06:08.039 --> 01:06:10.639



But was it too degraded to be tested in seventy110401:06:10.639 --> 01:06:15.800



two because they didn't have the technology sophisticated or sensitive110501:06:15.880 --> 01:06:18.280



enough to test it, or was it like that degraded110601:06:18.280 --> 01:06:20.280



It could have been. It been six weeks and now110701:06:20.280 --> 01:06:23.039



it's been fifty three years. Could they get anything? Maybe110801:06:23.679 --> 01:06:30.360



it's possible. Do they still have the vial as whatever110901:06:30.480 --> 01:06:33.679



substance was in the vial, Like, is that able to111001:06:33.760 --> 01:06:38.960



be examined or tested? Because maybe that has some sort111101:06:39.000 --> 01:06:40.679



of answer to it. I mean, I don't know. It111201:06:40.679 --> 01:06:44.119



could literally just be nothing. It could be sand from111301:06:44.159 --> 01:06:48.480



the beach because she had been to I think she111401:06:48.519 --> 01:06:52.000



had been down the shore before her death, So like,111501:06:52.039 --> 01:06:55.199



I mean, it could have just been a vial of sand.111601:06:55.800 --> 01:06:57.639



So maybe it's nothing, But they didn't test it in111701:06:57.639 --> 01:06:59.719



the first place, so like, what's the harm in testing111801:06:59.760 --> 01:07:00.199



it now?111901:07:01.079 --> 01:07:04.519



But given the other kinds of I guess the ways112001:07:04.559 --> 01:07:08.039



that the evidence was handled at the beginning of the case,112101:07:08.079 --> 01:07:13.119



it makes you wonder after this investigation started and the112201:07:13.159 --> 01:07:16.679



body is finally released to the family, Yeah, what happened112301:07:16.719 --> 01:07:18.960



to this close and how was it stored over the112401:07:19.039 --> 01:07:21.880



last fifty plus years? What care it? We know it112501:07:21.960 --> 01:07:24.400



was this kind of air dried with the HVAC system.112601:07:25.000 --> 01:07:27.840



We know it was sinof for testing. But when they112701:07:27.840 --> 01:07:31.480



get those materials back, what do they do with them?112801:07:31.559 --> 01:07:34.039



At this point, there's a real question market maybe we112901:07:34.079 --> 01:07:38.159



can't automatically assume that, you know, they handled them with113001:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.280



great care and followed some protocols. It just doesn't seem113101:07:41.320 --> 01:07:43.159



to be the history with the way they handled other113201:07:43.199 --> 01:07:44.360



elements's case.113301:07:45.719 --> 01:07:49.840



Exactly. Considering that they were reluctant to write up a113401:07:49.920 --> 01:07:54.440



chain of command for her arm because the dog had113501:07:54.480 --> 01:07:57.000



it first, so they couldn't follow chain of command, that113601:07:57.119 --> 01:07:59.480



just that doesn't make any sense to me. I find113701:07:59.519 --> 01:08:01.400



it really hard to believe that they would have stored113801:08:01.519 --> 01:08:04.239



her clothing and the evidence properly. I'm going to go113901:08:04.239 --> 01:08:06.559



out on a limb and say that they probably didn't.114001:08:07.440 --> 01:08:11.199



But also I wonder if there is any truth to114101:08:11.440 --> 01:08:14.440



flooding from the hurricane that they told We're New Jersey114201:08:14.480 --> 01:08:17.079



because they said the case file was destroyed. Obviously it114301:08:17.119 --> 01:08:24.199



was not, but was the actual evidence damaged in any flooding?114401:08:24.239 --> 01:08:25.640



And maybe that's why they didn't want to get the114501:08:25.680 --> 01:08:29.359



report because it's well, you know, you'll ask questions and114601:08:29.439 --> 01:08:31.640



want things tested, and we can't test them because they114701:08:31.680 --> 01:08:34.039



were destroyed, And maybe they don't want to admit to that.114801:08:34.439 --> 01:08:39.600



I have no idea Springfield PD is not willing to114901:08:39.800 --> 01:08:43.199



discuss it with anybody, because they haven't made a statement115001:08:43.960 --> 01:08:47.479



at all since the original investigation. I don't think they115101:08:48.319 --> 01:08:51.319



were willing to speak with Jesse Pollock. They weren't willing115201:08:51.359 --> 01:08:54.359



to speak with the media in twenty nineteen when they115301:08:54.439 --> 01:08:58.359



finally released the file. The only ones that were willing115401:08:58.399 --> 01:09:03.159



to talk were original people on the scene, and they're115501:09:03.560 --> 01:09:06.680



very elderly now and not involved with the police. I115601:09:06.720 --> 01:09:10.640



think the Donald Schwart is when he was interviewed in115701:09:10.640 --> 01:09:13.720



twenty nineteen, he's like ninety one, so like, what are115801:09:13.720 --> 01:09:15.960



they gonna do about him talking nothing? He's ninety one,115901:09:16.359 --> 01:09:19.399



So I don't know. I don't know if it's just116001:09:19.439 --> 01:09:22.159



because they know that they screwed up the investigation and116101:09:22.159 --> 01:09:24.159



that's why they're so willing to talk, and that's why116201:09:24.199 --> 01:09:27.399



they were unwilling to share the file and that's why116301:09:27.439 --> 01:09:31.000



they're not doing anything to look into it now because116401:09:31.000 --> 01:09:33.399



they know that they made a lot of mistakes and116501:09:34.239 --> 01:09:38.079



or what I mean, there's a huge possibility that had116601:09:38.119 --> 01:09:40.600



they done everything perfectly, that the case still wouldn't be116701:09:40.640 --> 01:09:43.800



solved because they really didn't have a lot to go on,116801:09:43.840 --> 01:09:46.119



but they weren't trying all that hard to look, so116901:09:46.159 --> 01:09:46.840



it's hard to tell.117001:09:47.399 --> 01:09:51.479



Do they classify this case toesday the current investigators. Do117101:09:51.520 --> 01:09:53.880



you know if this is classified as a suspicious death117201:09:54.039 --> 01:09:55.119



or as a homicide?117301:09:55.880 --> 01:09:59.960



I don't know. It's hard to tell because on one hand,117401:10:00.079 --> 01:10:02.760



I keep saying, oh, it was an overdose, even though117501:10:02.760 --> 01:10:05.159



they have no proof of an overdose. But then they117601:10:05.199 --> 01:10:12.199



also mention an assailant later on, So is it an117701:10:12.239 --> 01:10:17.640



assailant or is it an overdose because they're not synonymous117801:10:17.640 --> 01:10:18.159



with each other.117901:10:19.039 --> 01:10:22.039



And if it's an overdose, that clear vile with the118001:10:22.119 --> 01:10:26.119



unknown substance becomes a piece of evidence that which is118101:10:26.159 --> 01:10:28.079



still in their possession. They do have pictures of that118201:10:28.199 --> 01:10:31.079



were passed along with the case file. That becomes something118301:10:31.239 --> 01:10:35.720



that would be worth testing at this point exactly.118401:10:37.159 --> 01:10:42.359



But Springfield PD isn't talking to anybody. I tried, they118501:10:42.399 --> 01:10:45.119



wouldn't answer my emails. But you know, I don't know.118601:10:46.560 --> 01:10:50.880



What you see as the kind of continued interest in118701:10:50.920 --> 01:10:54.880



this case in twenty twenty five. You've mentioned to me118801:10:54.960 --> 01:10:58.520



before that people in this region are still generally familiar.118901:10:58.760 --> 01:11:01.640



Many people are still generally familiar with the case. What119001:11:01.760 --> 01:11:03.720



do you think that ongoing interest is Is it just119101:11:03.800 --> 01:11:06.159



that the number of unknowns in this case, or is119201:11:06.199 --> 01:11:08.520



it does this feel like do people talk about this119301:11:08.600 --> 01:11:11.239



as like a relic of the seventies and is it119401:11:11.279 --> 01:11:13.640



a ghost story? How do people kind of relate to it?119501:11:13.680 --> 01:11:17.239



Do you think it's interesting? Because like, originally, and they119601:11:17.279 --> 01:11:20.000



talk about this in the Weird New Jersey article, Originally119701:11:20.800 --> 01:11:23.159



people in New Jersey kind of forgot about Janet's palma119801:11:23.159 --> 01:11:27.680



pretty quickly, which is like incredibly sad. But they forgot119901:11:27.680 --> 01:11:32.159



about her very quickly, and then years after the fact,120001:11:32.640 --> 01:11:39.079



someone somewhere remembered her wrote to Weird New Jersey about Jeanette.120101:11:39.119 --> 01:11:40.760



They published it, and all of a sudden, out of120201:11:40.760 --> 01:11:42.479



the word work was all these people going, oh my god,120301:11:42.479 --> 01:11:44.279



I remember Janet's Palama. Oh my god, they never saw120401:11:44.399 --> 01:11:46.640



their case. Oh my god. It was so sad. And120501:11:46.680 --> 01:11:50.000



then they started talking about Satan and the devil and120601:11:50.079 --> 01:11:53.199



it being the result of like occult activity. So the120701:11:53.359 --> 01:11:57.960



enduring legend of Janet'sapama's case is I think deeply rooted120801:11:58.159 --> 01:12:05.159



in Satan or Satanic interests or Satanic gossip and things120901:12:05.239 --> 01:12:09.199



like that. In more in my area, people are less familiar,121001:12:09.359 --> 01:12:13.800



but I'm like over an hour from Springfield, so less121101:12:13.840 --> 01:12:16.239



people in my area are familiar, But like the farther121201:12:16.359 --> 01:12:18.800



south you go, the more people like kind of know.121301:12:19.560 --> 01:12:23.760



Especially with true crime being so popular, more and more121401:12:23.800 --> 01:12:27.720



people have started covering Janette's Palmas case. So there's that121501:12:28.880 --> 01:12:32.880



enduring story there because people are talking about it more121601:12:33.039 --> 01:12:36.880



just because of the admin of true crime and podcasting121701:12:36.880 --> 01:12:39.720



and all of that. But prior to that, it was121801:12:40.520 --> 01:12:45.520



really the the Satanic element, and people still think it's121901:12:45.680 --> 01:12:50.960



rooted in Satanism, even though we know it's definitely not.122001:12:51.560 --> 01:12:54.039



Even in the first place, it was pretty clear that122101:12:54.119 --> 01:12:58.640



it wasn't. There was no evidence to support that from122201:12:58.680 --> 01:13:01.520



the very beginning, but people just kind of ran with122301:13:01.520 --> 01:13:07.479



that because of this fear of Satan and the Satanic122401:13:07.520 --> 01:13:13.680



panic and all of that. Because she died three years122501:13:13.800 --> 01:13:17.560



after the Manson murders, so people were already freaked out122601:13:18.680 --> 01:13:22.079



with the idea of ritualistic murders and things like that.122701:13:22.159 --> 01:13:25.239



So I think that also kind of helped propel the122801:13:25.399 --> 01:13:31.119



enduring legacy of her case because it's so rooted in Satanism,122901:13:31.600 --> 01:13:34.479



which drives me nuts. There's nothing to do with it.123001:13:36.239 --> 01:13:38.880



So there's that cruel irony. Then this person that, by123101:13:39.119 --> 01:13:42.439



many people's accounts, in you her was devoutly religious, that123201:13:42.520 --> 01:13:45.840



her legacy becomes one of this associated with Satan.123301:13:47.399 --> 01:13:52.399



Exactly. They say, irony is cruel. Thanks for joining me today,123401:13:52.760 --> 01:13:55.720



Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. You can123501:13:55.720 --> 01:13:59.520



come back whenever you want. For those of you listening,123601:14:00.079 --> 01:14:02.600



if you have any information about the death of Jeanette123701:14:02.640 --> 01:14:05.920



to PAMA, you can call the Springfield Police Department at123801:14:06.000 --> 01:14:10.359



nine seven three three seven six zero four zero zero.123901:14:11.359 --> 01:14:13.439



In the source notes below will be the Justice for124001:14:13.600 --> 01:14:17.600



Jeannette website, which does have a direct link to the124101:14:17.760 --> 01:14:22.560



petition to have Jeanette's case recategorized from a suspicious death124201:14:22.600 --> 01:14:26.199



to a homicide. Also in the source notes will be124301:14:26.319 --> 01:14:30.079



a link to Brian's book, and there will also be124401:14:30.159 --> 01:14:32.800



the links to the two other episodes I did with Brian.124501:14:33.239 --> 01:14:36.560



If you want more content, you can check out the124601:14:36.560 --> 01:14:38.840



interview I did with him and his brother Cameron about124701:14:38.880 --> 01:14:42.039



the book. You can also check out the interview Brian124801:14:42.079 --> 01:14:44.640



and I did with JT. Townsend about the Brick of124901:14:44.760 --> 01:14:50.199



family Murders. As always, I hope you have a wonderful125001:14:50.239 --> 01:14:53.399



week and I will see you in the next chapter125101:14:53.560 --> 01:14:59.039



of the Book of the Dead. Bye guys, another page closed.125201:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.159



The story isn't over for the families left behind, the125301:15:04.199 --> 01:15:08.239



pain doesn't end when the headline's fade. And for the victims,125401:15:08.479 --> 01:15:12.239



we owe them more than silence for our on solved cases.125501:15:12.920 --> 01:15:15.760



If you have any information, please reach out to local125601:15:15.800 --> 01:15:19.520



authorities or visit our show notes for links and resources.125701:15:20.199 --> 01:15:25.319



Someone out there knows something, maybe it's you. Thank you125801:15:25.399 --> 01:15:28.039



for listening to the Book of the Dead. If this125901:15:28.159 --> 01:15:31.039



story moved or spoke to you in some way, talk126001:15:31.079 --> 01:15:36.039



about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until next time.126101:15:36.279 --> 01:15:42.880



I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant,126201:15:43.239 --> 01:15:46.920



and remember the dead may be gone, but their stories126301:15:47.000 --> 01:15:48.359



will not be forgotten.