WEBVTT
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Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.
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In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay
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the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,
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waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This
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is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast
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where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,
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re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath
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the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and
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every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,
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one step closer to justice. Brought to you by Darkast
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Network INDEP Podcasts with the Twist. Hello, Hello, Welcome to
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the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. On
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January twenty sixth, two thousand and one, thirty three year
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old Diane Whipple returned home to her apartment at twenty
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three ninety eight Pacific Avenue in San Francisco. As she
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attempted to enter her apartment, she was a viciously attacked
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by two prese To carnarios owned by her neighbors, Robert
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Noel and Marjorie Noler. As Marjorie looked on, Diane was mauled,
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ultimately succumbing to her injuries, and what would follow would
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be a national outcry as the public demanded Noel and
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Noler be held responsible for the actions of their monstrous dogs.
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But the investigations to bring them up on charges would
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uncover a connection to the Aryan Brotherhood that no one
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could have ever expected. Back with me today to discuss
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this case and the subject of her latest book, Daga
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War is Aphrodite Chilnes, who took a deep dive into
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the story that is quite literally stranger than fiction. Alfredit,
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it is so good to have you back. I'm very excited.
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Thank you for having me back. I love this show.
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Oh, thank you so much. So let's just start from
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the beginning. Tell me about this case. Besides the fact
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that it ended up being so bizarre, what was it
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that made you want to write about it?
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So I had the opportunity to go sit in the courtroom,
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and this case was so big in San Francisco that
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they had to change venue down to Los Angeles, where
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I happened to be living at the time. So knowing
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that I had that opportunity, I'm like, I'm getting that courtroom.
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I got to see what's going on with this Because
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at that point, these two lawyers had already gone on
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Good Morning America and told Elizabeth Bargas, who's the anchor
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at the time, that they held no responsibility for what
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happened to their neighbor. That Marjorie Noah actually said she
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should have just closed the door. I would have I'm quoting. Now,
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this is a woman who watched and witnessed her two
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dogs attack, not just Diane Whipple what happened, the mauling
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and the murder, but attack forty other instances of attacks
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throughout the city of San Francisco, and she's covering it up,
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which is.
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Just so insane to me. Because these dogs were They
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were warned that these dogs were so vicious, So why
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do you think they ignored those warnings?
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Okay, so we have to go back right into the story.
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The dog is called Presa Canario. It's an unknown breed.
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It's not recognized by the American Caundra Club. To give
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you an example still to this day. The reason it's
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press of Canario. It comes from the Canary Islands. It
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was used in Spain to take bulls down in bull rains.
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All Right. It is a size of a mastiff with
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the power of a pitbull doubled. Okay, Now there are
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people who have pres canarios, you know, that are fine,
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and I met one because I didn't want to be
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afraid of all these dogs. Okay, it's not the dog's fault.
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Let me make it clear that I am not blaming
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these dogs. This has nothing to do with the dogs.
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It has to do with the owners. Unfortunately, the owners
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of these dogs were the leaders of the area and
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Brotherhood prison game, and these dogs were being raised for
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their illicit activities so that their associates on the outside
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could guard and use the dogs to guard meth labs,
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pop farms, heroin labs. So this is not a typical scenario.
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On any level. You so I'm saying, I mean you
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read it.
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Right, Yeah, I mean, these it definitely wasn't a scenario.
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These dogs weren't bread just to be you know, pets.
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They were definitely from the beginning bred to be attack
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dogs and kill. That's what they were bred for, which
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is insane because then they were allowed to be in
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an apartment. You know, they pegged them into an apartment.
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So how does that happen?
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Right? So, how that happened? Is understand the way these
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dogs were bred. They were mishandled. They the Aran Brotherhood
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shot collar in Pelican Bay Prison, Paul Schneider started this
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operation with his cellmate. What they wanted to do is
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raise the fiercest, most dangerous dogs ever to sell and
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make a lot of money through all of their associates
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who have all their various sex trafficking drug trafficking activities.
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The person who wound up taking these dogs for Paul
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Schneider was a churchwoman who lived up in the upper
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ends of California near Oregon, where it's hot farm Heaven,
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where it's very rural. In where she lived in it
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is called the Emerald Triangle. And so she.
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Got pajoled into visiting Paul Schneider because he says, I've
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never seen a woman in twenty years, blah blah blah.
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Here's a woman.
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She's overweight, she's alone, she's got a daughter, but she's
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been loved by her husband. So she goes and visits Schneider,
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who's like a Hannibal lecter, and Schneider convinces her over time.
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It takes months writing back and forth, complimenting her, sending
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her stuff. Okay, I'll take the dogs. I'll take the dogs.
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She takes them. They get delivered from the airport Canada.
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They were imported. When she has the dogs, the guy
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at the airport says, you have got Kujo in the
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cage here?
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Do you know that?
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She's I don't even Woo's Kujo.
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She doesn't know what the guy's talking about.
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But what she does know is the whole ride home
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and it's far from the airport for her to get
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to her farm. These dog dogs are batting down their cages.
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They're wildly crazy. Now she gets them to her farm
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and ultimately she changes them to the trees because you
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can't pull them in pens because they're gnawing and eating
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through the pants and they're still puppies. So that's where
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that started.
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It's crazy to me that he, I mean, Paul Schneider,
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of course, is you know, a leader in the Arian Brotherhood,
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and I want to come back to the Aran Brotherhood
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aspect of it. She was afraid of these dogs, but
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she didn't want to give them up. So kind of
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explain to those who aren't familiar with that story, how
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did Noel and Nola come to get these dogs? Because
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she was scared of them, you know, they were so strong.
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But they were her dogs.
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So I'm going to just use her first name, Janet.
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This is the church woman because when I met her
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for this story, she was in witness protection over this.
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This is dangerous stuff there. Your brotherhood has fingers on
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the outside. That's how Diane Whipple while I'm getting killed.
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That's how that went. And there's many other ways that
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things go wrong with dealing with Arion brotherods. But Janet
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had the dogs, and then they started eating her live stock,
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They ate her chickens, then they killed her sheep, and
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at one point they killed her daughter's cat, and that's
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when her daughter said, Mom, I don't want these dogs anymore.
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Janet didn't want to give them up because she felt
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motherly toward them. They had been puppies and they were
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now older, and the female had puppies. So she has
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little puppies plus the two adult dogs, and now they're
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all growing up, and she even though they're.
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Doing all this horrible stuff. We all have a.
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Tendency to overlook things we don't want to see. Now
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this is severe, clearly. I mean, I don't know how
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you can overlook a dog eating your animals.
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But I'm not in that woman's shoes, you know what
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I'm saying.
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I don't know, except to say she felt that these
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were her babies. She didn't want them to be taken
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and mishandled. She didn't understand that she was already mishandling
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them like this was not the right person to be
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dealing with this type of dog at all.
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So what happened.
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Paul Schneider does not like the reports that Janet is
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writing in on the dogs. She doesn't have enough money,
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she can't buy the expensive dog food. She can't this,
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she can't that they're breaking out of their cages, they're
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ruining her farm. Whatever. So he decides he's going to
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call his lawyers, Marjorie Dollar Noel. He's going to get
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them to go up to Hayfork and get those dogs
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in their control and get them out of Janet's hands.
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And those two lawyers go up to Hayfork, California, and
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they threatened Janet, They say, will take your farm. You
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These dogs do not.
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Belong to you. They belonged to Paul Schneider.
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And in order to take them into the city legally,
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they felt they needed to get a veterinarian to just
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give an okay, oh, the veterinarian doctor Donald Martin, and
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that letter went into evidence, writes a letter saying these
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dogs are not fit to be around humans, no less
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being brought into the city of San Francisco. So they
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understood the danger from the veterinarian when they took those dogs,
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and they didn't care, and they brought them to their
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little apartment in ritzy Pacific Heights. Now do you understand
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the setting there? Pacific Heights is billionaire's row. That's where
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the giddies live, okay, among other billionaires. This is a
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very high end, swanky neighborhood part of San Francisco. And
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who in their right mind would think that you're spending
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all this money to live in a nice.
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Apartment that next door to you are.
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Two monstrous creatures that aren't supposed to be in a
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city no less than the apartment.
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The apartment building had rules. You weren't even allowed to.
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Have a dog that size.
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These lawyers were breaking every rule. They didn't care.
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Why do you think they were so dismissive of these
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rules and regulations about having the dogs in the apartment.
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Why they were so dismissive of the warning that the
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veterinarian gave them, Like, was it this weird, bizarre connection
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they had with Paul Schneider, because that was something else
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entirely their arrangement with him.
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What was it?
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Do you think? So?
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I think these two lawyers were spurious lawsuit lawyers, meaning
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filing lawsuits for any reason at all and threatening and
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bullying everyone around them. So to give an example, and
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I'd fit in the book, it was a moment where
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a plumber came into the apartment to fix the pipe,
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and he was a German and he had a German accent,
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and they felt that he was putting the accent on
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deliberately to insult them. And they were insulted by this accent,
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and they wanted damages, and they sued and got money
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from the management of the apartment building. So you know,
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if you think about that, understand that people hear word
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of that all throughout the building. Everybody knows here's two
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crazy lawyers. They're willing to sue if you seized in
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the wrong direction. All right, So I'm not going to
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say anything about this dog. And what they did initially
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is the dogs looked very similar. So that bane, the
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male dog bane meaning destruction and death, the bane of
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my existence.
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All the dogs, many of the dogs either had goddess.
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Names or they had names like Fury and Baane and
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just you know, fears and frightening names. So the Noel
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El and Nola, the lawyers would take one dog out
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and come back and then the other dog out seeking
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around in the beginning, so that people thought it was
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just one dog. Now ultimately they in here. Why didn't
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why did they do it? Why didn't they listen to
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the bet? Why didn't they listened to the rule? Was
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the apartment? Because they were better than everyone else, because
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they're lawyers, and they consume you till the cows come home,
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and therefore you're going to do they want to do.
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That's who they were.
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Yeah, it was a very clear reading that that that
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was the kind of attitude they had. It was very egotistical,
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very narcissistic, especially Robert Noel. You describe him as evil,
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and you mentioned in the book that a lot of
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people connected to the case essentially agreed with that sentiment.
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Was it just the fact that he would he was
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so willing to just sue anyone for looking in the
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wrong direction or was there something like inherently about him
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that made him seem so evil.
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Yeah, it's hard to exactly put my finger on it,
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although clearly you're bringing animals that have killed livestock into
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your apartment obviously, and you have no reork for human
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life because this is what happened. Moreover, once Diane Luppl
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was killed, think about this with me.
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Think about this.
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Once Diane Ruple was killed on the same day, Robert
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Noel writes a letter went into evidence to Paul Schneider,
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and this is what he says. Bane is dead, as
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is one of our neighbors. Okay, didn't care what her
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name was, didn't care anything about her, didn't care that
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she was killed. What he cared about was now I
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need to save Hara, because how dare they take Bain away?
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Let me save Hara. And the idea that two people
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who know their dogs have caused all this havoc throughout
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the city of San Francisco and now had killed, murdered
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their next door neighbor want to save the female dog.
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When Marjorie Nuller was there for the attack and admitted
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that Hara took hold of Dinerple's pants and in her mind.
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That was okay, Bain's at Diane's throat and Harrah's at
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the pants. Meanwhile, both dogs stripped Diane Whipple completely naked.
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I mean she was a slaughtered lamp horrifying, mortifying scene.
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And they both saw that. They both saw that. Marjorie
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saw the actual attack and was there, and Robert Doll
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came short thereafter and saw a hallway cover and bloods
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Marjorie and every big smear of blood. I mean, what
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in the world would make you think you want to
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keep this animal that has killed somebody and you don't
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care that your next door neighbor was killed.
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And he was.
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Asked by Jim Hammer the DA and I watched the
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questioning at the trial.
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You didn't care about this timorous Oh who?
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He said, You wrote a letter to from Paul Schneider
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saying that a timorous mousey blonde almost had a heart attack,
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almost had a coronary when she saw band enter the elevator,
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and you were proud of that. And Robert noel Shuk
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has said yeah, and he said and who was that blonde?
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And he said Diane Lovell Well. So now after the fact, this.
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Woman has been murdered, the whole country is up in arms,
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the city is up in arms. I mean, anyone who's
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watching national news, it was on National News at that time,
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is saying, what is wrong with these people?
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How could you.
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Possibly have zero remorse, regret, nothing. You just care about
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your dog. You don't care that your next door neighbor
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was murdered by their animals. It was unware to think
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about this. Good Morning America like the Today's show back
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in two thousand and one, same thing. Millions of people
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watched this, and it also went on twenty twenty later
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that night, and people were seeing, you know, comments from
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the veterinarian who're saying I told them no, no, no, okay,
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comments from the police, comments from what were they thinking, Well,
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obviously they're not thinking now. Marjorie Noler should never have
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been left alone with those dogs. She never had a dog,
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she'd not handle dogs. She noel who weighed twice her weight,
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couldn't help those dogs.
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Back.
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He leaves her alone with the dogs and thinks it's
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okay that she can take the dogs out off leash
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in the hallway so they can go do their business
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up on the roof, which is also creepy. But that's
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what was going on. I mean, so it's many things.
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If to answer your question. Another thing I would say
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made me feel this way is when I would meet
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with him, and I met with him quite often in prison,
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and then I did a lot of interviews over the
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phone as well. He had tendency to talk in circles.
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And what I've noticed in time over my career dealing
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with evil people, one of the things like like psycho killers.
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And I'm not saying Noel was a psycho killer. I'm
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just saying he's evil. But one of the things I
305
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:37.200
noticed is in common is they tend to talk in circles,
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so that by the time you finished listening to whatever
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they've said, you don't even know what they've said because
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they haven't said anything.
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And that was very evident even reading the book and
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quotes from him. It was a lot of backtracking and
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going back and forth and to confuse people. And it
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was very clear to me reading that. And Marjorie was
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very similar. When the police had asked her about the
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control of the dog, she said, well, I had control
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of the dog, but the dog got to Diane. She goes, well, yeah,
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but I still had control of the dog, and like going, well,
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maybe I didn't have control of the dog in that moment,
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but I had control of the dog. It was. It
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was a lot of back and forth and a lot
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of talking in circles from the bulk of them.
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From both of them exactly.
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And the thing is, you can almost understand if you
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know many people who have had dogs and the dog
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bite someone, and any why I say, doh, wh dog
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is good?
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My dog is good.
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There were forty incidents Courtney, forty incidents also about the
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city of San Francisco. In one of them, Robert Nobell's
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finger was bitten off, severed completely by Baine that Marjorie
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had to take him to the hospital and I had
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to have it reattached to It was at the hospital
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for four days. I mean, what more do you need
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to know about these dogs to understand that they are
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lethal creatures? And yet you're all good with it. Not
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our fault, not our responsibility, responsibility.
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No.
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I'll never forget her saying that that I just couldn't
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believe it. Do you have any responsibility responsibility? No? And
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then she says, I would have just closed the door.
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I would have just gone to my apartment. Then when
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the attack happened after Diane Whipple is still alive on
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the floor, bleeding and completely nude, trying to crawl to
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her doorframe to get to safety. Arsie Knowler, after she
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puts her dogs in her apartment, walks right over Diane
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Whipple to get her keys, never calls nine one one.
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The other neighbor called nine one one.
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I mean, think about that for a minute.
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That was astounding to me because I obviously this was not,
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you know, a bite, This was a vicious mauling. There's
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blood everywhere. I don't understand, and I don't know if
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she's ever made mention of why she just had such
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a disregard for what was happening. Can't wrap my brain
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around that she has she ever made mention of why
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she just didn't care.
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No, I did meet her. I went to see her
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in jail, and she wasn't expecting me. It was one
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of these things where I just happened to be able
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to pop up in there and she thought I was
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her mother. Why, but she was not expecting me, And
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so I spoke to her for a few minutes and
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she just kind of they're making me into a villain.
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I'm not a villain.
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It was all about her narcissism, and again they still
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wanted to save hera It didn't matter that Hara was
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part of a lethal dog attack. They fought. They went
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to the Vicious and Dangerous Dog hearing that was held
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by Animal Care and Control. Those forty incidents that happened
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all throughout San Francisco. A huge number of those people
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testified at that Vicious and Dangerous Dog hearing, and every
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one of them, Noel and Nuler stood up and said,
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you're lying, you're lying, You're lying. It never happened. It
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never happened. I mean, these people were rabbit they were
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like wild dogs themselves.
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It's bizarre that there's a lot of things about them
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that's very bizarre. And the biggest thing for me that
376
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:17.079
was so bizarre was their relationship with Paul Schneider. So
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00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.920
obviously Paul Schneider is leader of the Aryan Brotherhood. And
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for those that don't know, because I think there's like
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00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.960
a lot of misconceptions. People know the abstract, but for
380
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.759
those that don't know, like what is the Aryan Brotherhood?
381
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So the Aryan Brotherhood is a prison gang and it
382
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.240
started the nineteen sixties. You have to understand that prisons
383
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.599
on their own, prisoners decide that they want to separate.
384
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They want to be segregated. Okay, so whites or whites,
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00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:45.720
blacks with blacks, Latinos with Latinas.
386
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.160
It's just that way. So there are names for these gangs.
387
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:53.720
Aaron Brotherhood is the white Gorilla I forget now, something
388
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:59.000
is the Black na. Mexican Mafia is a name for Latino.
389
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.079
I mean there are more names. Now, there are more
390
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.000
gangs than that, But I'm just giving you the.
391
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Idea that they're already segregated.
392
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.000
But here's the thing. Airing Brotherhood, which does have the
393
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.640
white supremacy ideology, and they have the Nazi symbols and
394
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.799
the skin heads, and they have all of that that
395
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.440
you think of with white supremacy. They do all that.
396
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.000
But what's more important to them, because they're a prison gang,
397
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.960
is power and control and how do they get that
398
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.400
through money? So their operation they are a criminal enterprise.
399
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.119
They are in Brotherhood. Yeah, they're all about white supremacy too,
400
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.480
but let's first perverse and foremost make sure we control
401
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.039
everybody else in the prison and anywhere we can. So
402
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:48.599
what they do is sex, trafficking, drug trafficking. That's why
403
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.119
these dogs are going to be sold to their associates,
404
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:54.160
for the platforms, for the nest labs, for the Heroin labs.
405
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.519
This is their business. And that's what Schnyder wanted to do.
406
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.799
Is he's buying the dogs twove hundred dollars, but the
407
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.359
settling between two and three thousand dollars. And he was
408
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:08.480
ready red hot read his operation Dog of War, that
409
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.400
was the name of it. And so you have to
410
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:16.839
understand the Aryan Brotherhood. When this happened and the murder
411
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.559
went down, Paul Schneider agreed to do an interview with
412
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.839
Rolling Stone Magazine. And because he did that and he
413
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.519
was quoted in there, the Aryan Brotherhood went against him.
414
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.440
And now because he outed the Aryan Brotherhood, they felt,
415
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.000
even though he didn't really that the authorities found all
416
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.440
this once the investigation got going. But because he went public,
417
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:40.640
they had to take him out of that prison and
418
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.440
offer him protection within prison and take him out.
419
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.640
Of the state of California so that he could because
420
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.039
there was a hit on him.
421
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.400
Because Arian Brotherhood is blooded and blood out, so you
422
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:53.480
have to kill someone to get in it, and then
423
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.119
you'll be killed if you get out, So it's not
424
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:57.880
a kind of people you want to hang around with,
425
00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:59.480
except Marjorie involved it.
426
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.359
And how did they get connected with Paul because they
427
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.680
have a twisted relationship and there's like a whole another
428
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.640
episode we could do just talking about their weird relationship
429
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.079
with Paul Schneider. It's a psychologist dream, honestly.
430
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.039
It's a psychotic relationship where they thought that he was
431
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.160
their son because they really wanted him to be their
432
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.839
husband and be a threesome and thought they were going
433
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:27.400
to get him out of the lethal Pelican they supermax
434
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.000
fences and have him home with them forever in some
435
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:39.240
medieval fantasy, bizarre, twisted, crazy shit I can't even I get.
436
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.960
It's honestly one of the craziest things to read about.
437
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.960
And I think the whole time I was reading that
438
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:47.359
was that especially. I mean, the whole story is like,
439
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.759
what is happening like? And oh my god, and then
440
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.599
you get to that and it's what is happening like it?
441
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.680
And it's real life, which is so bizarre.
442
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.200
I mean, you actually have to look at the pictures
443
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.559
and the drawings to even believe that this went on.
444
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.839
Right it If I didn't know about her, I would
445
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.279
think it was made up, like because it just it
446
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.480
doesn't seem real. And that was there's so much of
447
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.680
this that doesn't seem real. I mean, how did they
448
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:19.559
come to know him?
449
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.480
So these are people. Back up a little bit.
450
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:27.119
Robert Noel was a high powered attorney at one time,
451
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.200
not when it lived in San Francisco, but prior to
452
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.119
that worked for the government. YadA YadA, And they got married.
453
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.960
Second marriage, Martak Knowler became a lawyer and she was
454
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.960
his prize. And they at that time were hanging around
455
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.200
in the high society of San Francisco. So there's a
456
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.480
picture of them in the book in Black Tie. They're
457
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.720
going to the Getty's mansion to fundraisers. There, fundraisers at
458
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.880
the Opera House, all that kind of stuff. They're part
459
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.519
of it. But then as they start getting weirder and
460
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:04.200
weirder and going darker and darker, they're losing clients and
461
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.240
ultimately they wound up. It is long before the Dogs.
462
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.880
They wound up representing an inmate and a prison guard
463
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.880
from Pelican Bay and the Long Trials. They were in
464
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.359
upp in Preston City, where Pelican Bay was one of
465
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.359
the witnesses was Paul Schneider because the Rian Brotherhood was
466
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.160
involved in that particular court case.
467
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.359
And when they saw him.
468
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.319
And he's all brawn and the thirty seven years old
469
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:37.240
thirty six years old, you know, they're kind of frumpy people.
470
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.400
Even though she thinks she's this hot sexy things, she's
471
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:43.160
anything but that. I mean, it's hilarious. You see that
472
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.680
picture of her and the cape. I mean really, it's
473
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:50.079
just it just makes you just I can't even stand it.
474
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:55.079
It's like what But yeah, So they met him there
475
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.319
and as Robert Nol like to tell me, he's a
476
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.119
stand up guy. And all I could think is, do
477
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.279
you want to know about evil? You're talking to me
478
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.880
about a man who has three life sentences in prison.
479
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:08.599
He's in the Shoe, which is the secure housing unit
480
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.000
of the prison. I went there. You're in no man's land,
481
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.519
you're behind locks and locks and gates, and then there's
482
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.359
a whole field that you're walking past that's like that
483
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.119
black astro tar that has you know, you ever seen
484
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.000
where it has seems like it has silver shiny diamonds
485
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.759
in it, you know I'm talking about. You're walking through that.
486
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.680
It's so removed from any possibility of ever getting out
487
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.000
of there. That that's where Schneider is, okay, and they
488
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.640
know it. But that's okay because he's a stand up guy. No,
489
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.400
he tried to stab and did stab his attorney in a.
490
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.640
Court appearance prior to meeting them.
491
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.759
He's hiding ships up, his legs up because I mean,
492
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:59.000
the guy's a monster. But no, he's a stand up
493
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.720
guy and just decided he was fabulous. He's what's so brilliant?
494
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:08.640
La la la, and they fell in love with him.
495
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.680
It's bizarre to me, it's it's bizarre. How did the
496
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:17.119
police realize the connection to the area brotherhood and how
497
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.759
the dogs were being or why the dogs were being bried?
498
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.640
Like what what made them realize that this was far
499
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.160
bigger than what they imagined.
500
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.200
Okay, so initially obviously nobody knew, but the fact that
501
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.640
the dog owners were taking no responsibility and that they
502
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:36.279
were fighting to keep Hara alive created a huge mess.
503
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:37.960
Also in San Francisco, because there's a lot of dog
504
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.960
people in San Francisco.
505
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.920
So literally, I met a lawyer who represented Harrah. I
506
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:44.880
didn't put that in the book, but I did. It
507
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.279
was Sweetheart in Berkeley, and you know Berkeley is so liberal.
508
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:49.759
He was Hara's lawyer.
509
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:52.079
I'm like Hara as a lawyer, I gotta eat This
510
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.759
guy was amazing to me. It was a creepy little
511
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.799
office he had. I guess that's why when you represent51200:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.720
dogs that can't really pay very much. But the reason51300:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.079
I mentioned that is there are a lot of people51400:29:02.119 --> 00:29:03.240
who wanted Harra saved.51500:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.119
This guy offered his services as a lawyer for Harah.51600:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.279
So I mean, there's a craziness in San Francisco all51700:29:10.319 --> 00:29:14.480
about this situation, all about these people. And then at51800:29:14.480 --> 00:29:18.880
the same time, while that's all happening, they're sitting there51900:29:19.400 --> 00:29:24.519
pointing figures at everybody else, including Diane Whipple, and saying52000:29:24.839 --> 00:29:27.759
she could have brought the attack upon herself that she52100:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.599
may have been wearing. They wanted the DA to know,52200:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.119
you need to go into her medicine cabinet and find52300:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.119
out what story she was on, what perfume she used,52400:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.400
because that's what could have attracted our dogs. When that52500:29:39.519 --> 00:29:43.200
letter was sent to DA Terrence Helenan, who was the52600:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.160
DA of San Francisco at the time, that was before52700:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.640
the whole thing blew up all over the media. But52800:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.559
Robert Noel sent that letter also to the media. So52900:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.559
now there's all this information out there about this what's53000:29:56.680 --> 00:30:00.839
the story with these dogs? And then slowly, surely the53100:30:01.039 --> 00:30:05.359
San Francisco Police, along with the California Apartment of Corrections investigators,53200:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.359
along with the raw musket, all of them get together53300:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.440
and they are realizing that these dogs belong to Paul Schneider,53400:30:13.519 --> 00:30:17.640
the Are and Brotherhood member and his cellmate. And therefore,53500:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.240
all the legal mail that was confidential between Noel Knoler53600:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.839
and Schneider that couldn't be opened, the judge ordered to53700:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.039
be unsealed. And when everything was unsealed, there were all53800:30:29.079 --> 00:30:32.440
these letters. There was all this crazy art. There was53900:30:32.480 --> 00:30:37.440
this whole mystical family of three triad crazy insanity. I54000:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.400
mean this drawings I have on my website. If anybody54100:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.559
reads the book, you'll get to a place where I'll54200:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.079
send you there a plus material. One of the drawings54300:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.200
of Marjorie. It's not it's a vixen, it's not her,54400:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.799
but it's this woman. You got to check it out54500:30:51.799 --> 00:30:56.960
on this on my site, bonus material. She's bent over54600:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.599
and the guy that would be Schneider has an acts54700:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.240
pointing at her butt.54800:31:02.359 --> 00:31:03.720
Okay, I mean.54900:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.559
This is the craziest story I have ever written or55000:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.400
been involved with it. And I've been doing this thirty55100:31:09.480 --> 00:31:13.079
plus years, Okay, and I see all kinds of crazy,55200:31:13.160 --> 00:31:18.240
trust me, I know crazy. This is beyond the crazy.55300:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.119
It's insanity. I mean, there's no other way to describe it.55400:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.599
As crazy as the case was that, I mean, the55500:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.079
trial ended up breaking legal grad regarding owner responsibility. Like55600:31:27.160 --> 00:31:31.799
what was that impact like for future cases of dog attacks?55700:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.359
So, you know, it's very interesting that now, right now,55800:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.039
today we are seeing the first cases of parents being55900:31:39.079 --> 00:31:42.519
held responsible, criminally responsible for the actions of their child56000:31:42.759 --> 00:31:45.000
when a child goes in and SHOT's schoolhouse up.56100:31:45.440 --> 00:31:45.720
Now.56200:31:46.160 --> 00:31:47.920
I mean it's not often and it's not going to56300:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.880
be every minute, but it's starting, right This case was56400:31:50.920 --> 00:31:56.039
the start, the first that then created the president and56500:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.240
Governor Ray Davis was the governor of California at the time,56600:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.400
closed the loophole in the law and made it so56700:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.079
that anyone who owns a dog that commits the malling56800:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.920
can be held criminally.56900:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.680
Responsible for the actions of their dogs.57000:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.599
So that was a huge thing that came out of57100:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.039
this because that would have never happened if not for57200:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.200
this situation. And you know, I'm always on top of57300:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.880
what's going on in the news. Just look, you see57400:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.119
these schoolhouse shootings. For all these years I've been writing57500:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.119
about kids with teens with murder and it's horrifying, and57600:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.720
it's like, doesn't anybody hold the parents account? And it57700:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.640
started to happen. So that was a very important thing57800:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.599
that came out of this. And the other important thing57900:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.160
that came out of this was that Sharon Smith, Diane's58000:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.839
gay partner, wasn't able to sue for a wrongful death58100:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.200
against Nola and Noler because there was no precedent for58200:32:48.279 --> 00:32:52.599
that and gay couples had no RSIs before gay marriage58300:32:52.680 --> 00:32:56.279
was legalized. So that same year, in two thousand and one,58400:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.759
the summer two thousand and one that Diane was killed,58500:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.400
legislation was passed allowing a partner to sue for wrongful death.58600:33:03.799 --> 00:33:08.759
So that became the precursor then to gay marriage being blessed.58700:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.920
I believe it was first blessed in San Francisco, or58800:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.920
I think it was Vermont, San Francisco, Massachusetts, and San58900:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.039
Francisco was one of the first places I know, California was.59000:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.680
So it was a very important, very important case in59100:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.400
that regard. And I say that because also because it59200:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.359
makes me think of Diane and the fact that as59300:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.599
a slaughtered lamb, that her death doesn't go unnoticed, that59400:33:28.720 --> 00:33:32.519
her death actually made an impact. And yes, I am59500:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.480
sure many people have been saved from vicious dogs because59600:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.200
there is a law now that says you're going to59700:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.200
pay criminally.59800:33:40.920 --> 00:33:45.640
Absolutely, and I absolutely think that's true. And speaking of59900:33:45.880 --> 00:33:49.480
Marjorie being held criminally responsible, that was actually overturned and60000:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.720
then reinstated. So why and she was actually just her60100:33:53.960 --> 00:33:56.319
appeal was just denied again in the last month.60200:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.799
Right, let me set the scene for that. Okay, I'm60300:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.799
not the trial in Los Angeles. The jury comes back.60400:34:02.920 --> 00:34:05.440
First of all, the prosecutor wasn't even going to charge60500:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.320
them with second degree murder. Okay, that wasn't even a60600:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.559
thought because if you charge too high you can lose60700:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.760
the case. It was the grand jury who asked the prosecution, can.60800:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.679
We charge her with second degree murder?60900:34:21.559 --> 00:34:21.760
Right?61000:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.039
So, and then there was charge of the lesson included,61100:34:25.079 --> 00:34:27.199
which was Mansler, so that if they didn't find that61200:34:27.400 --> 00:34:31.800
it met that threshold. So one of the monumental things61300:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.400
that happened with this case, it actually solidified the definition61400:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.400
of second degree murder, which is what is it? Do61500:34:39.480 --> 00:34:39.719
you know?61600:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.599
Because people aren't sure, do you know? Yeah?61700:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.119
So second murder is when you're knowingly doing something that61800:34:47.159 --> 00:34:51.039
can cause the death of somebody. So like owning a61900:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.159
vicious dog without any sort of proper training.62000:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.000
You know, well, owning the.62100:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.119
Dog is You're good.62200:34:58.559 --> 00:35:02.039
Yeah, it's a vicious it's bifically, you know, within those62300:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.320
specific criteria.62400:35:04.039 --> 00:35:04.679
It has to have.62500:35:05.239 --> 00:35:09.599
So the example, the prostrity in court was if you62600:35:09.639 --> 00:35:12.239
have a machine gun and you're shooting it into a62700:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.960
school bus or a bus or a load of people, you know,62800:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.159
the chance of you causing death harm to human life62900:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.519
is there.63000:35:22.920 --> 00:35:24.480
Therefore it's secondary murder.63100:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.360
If you're driving a car drunk and you've already had63200:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.800
numerous d UIs, you know that this You now have63300:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.079
a three ton vehicle metal that's a weapon while with63400:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.519
your behind the wheel, so that you know, if you63500:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.159
kill somebody and you are drunk and you've had priors,63600:35:41.400 --> 00:35:42.320
you're going to go away.63700:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.119
I have a friend that has happened to.63800:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.119
For fifteen years for secondary murder, longer than Robert Noel paid.63900:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.960
Because we've gotten to a point in this country, luckily,64000:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.400
thankfully that people are saying, look, take control of who64100:35:58.400 --> 00:36:02.159
you are and what you're doing, and you can't shirk64200:36:02.199 --> 00:36:06.360
the responsibility of this. So back to the setting the scene.64300:36:06.599 --> 00:36:10.760
So I'm in LA. The jury comes back. Everybody is stunned,64400:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.559
thrilled that they have given Robert Noel, who wasn't even64500:36:14.559 --> 00:36:18.920
physically at the scene, charge him with manslaughter convicted, okay,64600:36:19.719 --> 00:36:25.119
and convicted Marjorie Noller of second degree murder. She gets64700:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.239
a sentence of fifteen to life. He gets a sentence64800:36:27.280 --> 00:36:31.119
of four years. Everybody is elated that this could happen,64900:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.760
that a jury in Los Angeles could see through this65000:36:34.079 --> 00:36:39.079
to set this record precedent setting verdict. Okay. We go65100:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.880
up to San Francisco a month later for the sentencing,65200:36:42.079 --> 00:36:45.000
which is a formality typically that's what it is. The65300:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.599
judge now is going to read the sentence that the65400:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.880
jury gave and George Warren comes out and he's looking65500:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.920
a little sheepish, and everybody's kind of like, there's a65600:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.800
lot of media, there's place is packed. He saits down.65700:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.159
He quietly says, I have been giving this a lot65800:37:01.199 --> 00:37:08.320
of thought, and I understand the jury's verdict, and but65900:37:08.480 --> 00:37:12.480
I just don't see how Marjorie Oler could have known66000:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.559
that her dog would kill someone. So I am going66100:37:16.639 --> 00:37:23.320
to reduce the verdict or the conviction to manslaughter. I'm66200:37:23.360 --> 00:37:24.280
just like everybody.66300:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.400
And there was like, okay, do we have juries in America?66400:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.159
Like didn't I just sit through a whole trial for66500:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.159
months with a twelve person jury and four other people66600:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.480
torture the alternates that never even got the desire to66700:37:36.599 --> 00:37:38.679
have to sit through all this, And now you're going66800:37:38.760 --> 00:37:43.199
to tell them that what you the judge decided you66900:37:43.239 --> 00:37:44.719
didn't really it wasn't.67000:37:44.519 --> 00:37:45.519
Really a second degree.67100:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.639
You know, this is now. So she goes away for67200:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.480
four years. Now like her husband, she's in the women's67300:37:52.519 --> 00:37:54.480
prison out Chilla in California.67400:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.719
Years later two, that's the five.67500:37:56.840 --> 00:37:59.039
I was covering the Michael Jackson trial, and so was67600:37:59.119 --> 00:38:03.199
Jim Hammer, prosecutor from the Dog one case, and he67700:38:03.360 --> 00:38:06.960
comes running over to me, what there's news because we67800:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.159
didn't have ourselves because in the Micheal court room you67900:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.519
couldn't be on your everything.68000:38:11.559 --> 00:38:12.880
They took all your stuff away from you.68100:38:12.920 --> 00:38:17.519
It was craziness. Anyway, they made Judge Warren, the Higher68200:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.840
Court decided no, no, no, no, you have made a68300:38:20.840 --> 00:38:21.400
mistake here.68400:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.239
You need to reconsider this case.68500:38:23.679 --> 00:38:29.280
They had Judge Warren really basically forced him to reinstate68600:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.039
the second degree muror conviction.68700:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.039
And Margie Muller, who was now living with her parents.68800:38:33.639 --> 00:38:38.800
In Florida being taken care of, was just clawed right68900:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.239
back to California. And as you said, she is still69000:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.400
trying to get out, and why don't they let her out?69100:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.119
Okay, it's now what twenty five years later?69200:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.519
You know why?69300:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.079
Well it was twenty two and so twenty four years later.69400:38:53.960 --> 00:38:59.679
Why because she still has Aaron Brotherhood associates. That makes69500:38:59.719 --> 00:39:04.960
her a threat to anybody around her and to society69600:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.840
at large, and people know it. And she ain't never69700:39:07.880 --> 00:39:12.679
getting out, sorry, lady, Yeah, she's never getting out. And69800:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.400
that's that's clear that she's never getting out. I think69900:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.199
this was like her third appeal. I think, oh yeah,70000:39:18.440 --> 00:39:22.760
read correctly. Do you think what would have prevented this70100:39:22.880 --> 00:39:23.760
in a perfect world?70200:39:24.320 --> 00:39:28.239
You know, honestly, I don't know that there could have70300:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.199
been anything to prevent this. A couple of weeks prior70400:39:31.239 --> 00:39:35.440
to the lethal attack being the larger dog bit Diane70500:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.639
Wibble on the risk it just so happened.70600:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.079
She called her girlfriend. She was also shook up. I'd70700:39:40.119 --> 00:39:40.679
be sure up too.70800:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.360
If you have one hundred and forty pounds dog that70900:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.360
bites you, I mean, that's all any dog bite.71000:39:45.719 --> 00:39:47.119
So her girlfriend comes.71100:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.360
Home and because we're being bit Diane was on the71200:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.800
risk with her. She had a sports spotch on. There71300:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.440
was no breaking of the skin. There was a little71400:39:55.440 --> 00:39:57.679
bit of a redness there. But Sharon Smith was like,71500:39:58.199 --> 00:40:03.840
you know, okay, you know, sorry, but there was that warning. Right.71600:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.039
It's not up to Diane to do anything to prevent this.71700:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.599
It was up to the dog owners to do something71800:40:10.639 --> 00:40:14.559
to prevent this. Oh absolutely, And so what could have71900:40:14.599 --> 00:40:17.440
been done to prevent it is, first of all, obviously72000:40:17.480 --> 00:40:19.039
don't bring them there in the first place. But if72100:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.480
you're going to do that and you have these dangerous animals,72200:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.239
you don't take them around San Francisco and treat them72300:40:25.280 --> 00:40:26.360
like they're happy puppies.72400:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.079
And that's what they were doing. So these dogs also72500:40:29.119 --> 00:40:30.760
had a very mixed signals.72600:40:30.920 --> 00:40:32.559
This is not the first time you've written about this.72700:40:32.880 --> 00:40:35.719
You originally wrote about this, you called it red zone.72800:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.159
What led you to go back? Why did you change72900:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.639
the name because the term red zone is originally coined73000:40:40.639 --> 00:40:44.199
by Caesar Milan, a dog whisperers. What led to the change,73100:40:44.239 --> 00:40:46.119
what led to you rewriting the whole thing?73200:40:47.000 --> 00:40:49.639
So I got the rights back to my book years73300:40:49.639 --> 00:40:54.440
ago from HarperCollins, and I just let it be, and73400:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.599
I've gone on with my career. It's been many years73500:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.679
since I've had that. And at some point I realized73600:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.719
people do not know this story, and they don't know73700:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.639
it because the title was wrong and the cover doesn't73800:41:07.719 --> 00:41:10.519
let you understand what this thing is about. It's not73900:41:10.679 --> 00:41:14.400
about dogs that are dog moulling. It's about the Aryan Brotherhood.74000:41:14.880 --> 00:41:20.400
It's about the insanity of this whole scenario that boiled74100:41:20.480 --> 00:41:27.199
up and came together and landed Diane Whipple. Yet she74200:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.559
is the like I say, thotted lamb here, and if74300:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.079
it weren't hurt, it would have been someone else that74400:41:33.239 --> 00:41:35.519
was going to happen in this scenario.74500:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.599
And I realized that people need to hear this.74600:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.639
And part of it is because, as I'm saying about74700:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.880
with children in school shootings, people need to start to understand, hey,74800:41:46.039 --> 00:41:47.400
you're going to be responsible.74900:41:47.480 --> 00:41:50.960
You're not just gonna walk away. You created it, You're75000:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.000
going to pay for them. And also as a writer.75100:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.960
In my last book, Levi's Eyes that I wrote, I75200:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.159
felt was so much better in my ability to write75300:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.079
what I wanted to take some of the rabbit holes75400:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.360
away if you read it. Also, just on a little75500:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.840
aside for anybody who wants to be a writer. I75600:42:05.920 --> 00:42:08.840
thought I didn't mention it per se in the book.75700:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.719
I don't think, but if anybody ever wanted to see75800:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.360
how do you take a book and nake it into75900:42:14.440 --> 00:42:19.400
something half the size and more powerful that book lives76000:42:19.440 --> 00:42:20.239
Red Zone lives.76100:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.320
I can't. I can't distract, I can't destroy it.76200:42:23.400 --> 00:42:25.199
I can't take it away. It's out there.76300:42:25.800 --> 00:42:29.440
But dog War is the story without.76400:42:28.840 --> 00:42:32.119
All the rabbit holes, these crazy cases that these lawyers76500:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.239
went down with other inmates, and all the Area Brotherhood stuff.76600:42:35.320 --> 00:42:37.639
There was a lot that went on a lot with76700:42:37.719 --> 00:42:38.599
the Arian Brotherhood.76800:42:38.800 --> 00:42:42.840
But I felt like it detracted from Diane and the76900:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.840
mauling and the scenario in San Francisco. So I went77000:42:46.880 --> 00:42:48.559
in to do that, And once I did that, don't77100:42:48.599 --> 00:42:50.679
ever ask a writer to go in and look at77200:42:50.679 --> 00:42:55.920
the work again, because that was a big mistake. Because77300:42:55.960 --> 00:42:57.199
I thought I was going to go in and just77400:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.119
pull a few little pieces out and it'd be nice77500:42:59.159 --> 00:43:03.039
and easy. It took me a full year to write77600:43:03.119 --> 00:43:06.920
this book, and basically, other than the first chapter, the77700:43:07.079 --> 00:43:10.920
entire things were written. Yeah, it was a fool rewrite,77800:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.159
so but I mean, I'm very glad that I did77900:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.400
that because the other thing, too, is our world has78000:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.519
changed so much. People don't have patience to read long chapters.78100:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.960
It's sad, but that's kind of how it is. I've78200:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.280
always written shorter chapters, but now I've gotten to a78300:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.000
place where, Okay, it's going to be a three page chapter,78400:43:25.079 --> 00:43:29.000
one page chapter, four page chef because people want We78500:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.559
all want quick and easy. It's just weir condition to78600:43:31.599 --> 00:43:31.920
that now.78700:43:32.000 --> 00:43:35.679
Yeah, in the age of like short form content, it's in.78800:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.880
The age of if it's not thirty seconds, it can't78900:43:37.880 --> 00:43:44.119
go on TikTok. Yeah. I like my long books too,79000:43:44.199 --> 00:43:46.199
And I look, I shortened the book more than I79100:43:46.239 --> 00:43:48.840
thought of have shortened it, honestly.79200:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.760
But I feel like I have the right essence in79300:43:52.840 --> 00:43:54.440
this version of the story.79400:43:54.679 --> 00:43:57.079
Diane is very much the center of the story. So79500:43:57.159 --> 00:43:59.599
obviously the the Arian Brotherhood is a huge part of it,79600:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.159
it has to be, but Diane is very much the79700:44:03.199 --> 00:44:04.199
center of this.79800:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.400
Story, which is the most important thing.79900:44:06.599 --> 00:44:11.119
Absolutely, and this book I get by the time you80000:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.000
guys are listening to this. The book is available now80100:44:14.280 --> 00:44:18.760
on Amazon and it's available physical and kindle edition.80200:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.800
Yes okay, and I will do an audio in time.80300:44:22.119 --> 00:44:28.440
Okay, so audio coming, but kindle edition and physical copy available.80400:44:28.719 --> 00:44:30.559
The link of course, as always, will be in the80500:44:30.599 --> 00:44:33.719
source notes below. Of course, also in the source notes80600:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.400
will be the last two times Afredititi joined me. We80700:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.000
covered Levi's eyes ends, we talked about Rod Perrel and80800:44:40.119 --> 00:44:44.360
Teens that Kill, which is very apropos but as always, Afroditi,80900:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.639
it has been such a pleasure having you on. You81000:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.719
know you're welcome whenever.81100:44:49.159 --> 00:44:51.920
Well, thank you so much. I have another book that81200:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.960
I'm going to be brewing up, but I'm going to81300:44:54.079 --> 00:44:55.280
probably release in the fall.81400:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.280
We'll see if I can get that, yes.81500:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.760
Okay, so you know who knows going to be able81600:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.039
to for another we'll definitely.81700:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.559
I love your show. I love that you talk about books.81800:45:07.639 --> 00:45:09.039
We need people like you.81900:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.800
Oh, we need you, We need you.82000:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.559
We need more fortinies in the world, seriously, because you82100:45:16.599 --> 00:45:18.599
know AI is eating up our brains.82200:45:18.880 --> 00:45:23.280
But as always, thank you so much for listening, and82300:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.519
I hope you have a wonderful week and I will82400:45:25.519 --> 00:45:28.079
see you guys in the next chapter of the Book82500:45:28.119 --> 00:45:33.639
of the Dead. Bye guys. Another page closed. But the82600:45:33.719 --> 00:45:38.039
story isn't over for the families left behind. The pain82700:45:38.159 --> 00:45:41.840
doesn't end when the headline's fade. And for the victims,82800:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.960
we owe them more than silence for our on salt cases.82900:45:46.599 --> 00:45:49.440
If you have any information, please reach out to local83000:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.679
authorities or visit our show notes for links and resources.83100:45:53.880 --> 00:46:00.159
Someone out there knows something, maybe it's you. Thank you83200:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.760
for listening to the Book of the Dead. If this83300:46:02.840 --> 00:46:05.760
story moved or spoke to you in some way, talk83400:46:05.760 --> 00:46:12.199
about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until next time,83500:46:12.440 --> 00:46:19.039
I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant,83600:46:19.400 --> 00:46:23.079
and remember the dead may be gone, but their stories83700:46:23.159 --> 00:46:24.519
will not be forgotten.
