May 27, 2025

Chapter 105: Summer's Almost Gone-The Bricca Family Murders w/ JT Townsend & Brian Santana

Chapter 105: Summer's Almost Gone-The Bricca Family Murders w/ JT Townsend & Brian Santana
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player badge
Castro podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconCastro podcast player iconRSS Feed podcast player icon
Interviews

As summer drew to a close in September of 1966 in Cincinnati, Ohio, something terrible was happening at 3381 Greenway Avenue amid another killer's reign of terror attacking women. The Bricca family, Jerry, Linda, and their little girl, Debbie, were brutally murdered in their own home as their neighbors gathered in their homes, settling in to watch TV on that rainy evening. Decades later, the mystery of who committed this heinous crime and who was responsible remains unsolved. Today, I am joined by Brian Santana as my cohost as we sit down with the one man who has spent his life investigating this crime. J.T. Townsend walks us through the crime that has had a hold of him since childhood, so much so that he compiled his research into a comprehensive look at the case in his bookSummer's Almost Gone. J.T. takes us through it all, from the timeline, the possible motives, and the person who he believes got away with murder



J. T. Townsend is a freelance writer, armchair detective, and lifelong resident of Cincinnati. He is the author of the 2009 regional best-seller Queen City Gothic, and 2014’s Queen City Notorious, and his work has appeared in the Cincinnati Enquirer, Cincinnati Magazine, Word Magazine, Crime Traveler, and Clews. He has presented over 300 programs in the Cincinnati area as part of his True Crime Lecture Series, including Jack the Ripper, Lizzie Borden, and the Lindbergh Kidnapping. He teaches his Cincinnati True Crime Detective class for the University of Cincinnati Communiversity division.
In 2018, he was featured on WCPO News, 700WLW Radio, and the Cincinnati Enquirer while promoting his new book Summer’s Almost Gone, a regional bestseller! In 2020, he appeared on WLWT News with Sheree Paolello.

Visit his website and get a copy of Summer's Almost Gone atwww.jttownsend.com
Visit his Facebook Page atJT Townsend, True Crime Detective

Check out the interview I did with Brian and Cameron Santana on the murder of Virginia Olson here

Get Murder on Campus: The Professor, The Cop, and North Carolina's Most Notorious Cold Case Here

Connect with us on Social Media!
You can find us at:
Instagram:@bookofthedeadpod
X:@bkofthedeadpod
Facebook:The Book of the Dead Podcast
TikTok:Bookofthedeadpod
Or visit our website atwww.botdpod.com

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:05.120
Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.

2
00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.279
In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay

3
00:00:09.320 --> 00:00:12.880
the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,

4
00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:17.600
waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This

5
00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.039
is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast

6
00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:26.519
where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,

7
00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:31.480
re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath

8
00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:36.520
the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and

9
00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:42.520
every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,

10
00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.320
one step closer to justice. Brought to you by Darkass

11
00:00:47.320 --> 00:01:10.239
Network in Deep Podcasts with the Twist. Hello, Hello, Welcome

12
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.120
to the next chapter in the Book of the Dead.

13
00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:18.480
Today we have a special episode one September evening. In

14
00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:23.359
nineteen sixty six, something terrible happened inside a modest brick

15
00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:27.319
home at thirty three eighty one Greenway Avenue. The brick

16
00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:31.000
of family Jerry, Linda and their four year old daughter,

17
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:35.280
Debbie were brutally murdered in their home, no signs of

18
00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:40.400
forced entry, no clear motive, and no one was ever arrested.

19
00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.719
For decades, silence and fear gripped a community that refused

20
00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.359
to look too deeply into its own shadows. Today I

21
00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.599
am joined by two special guests. First with me is

22
00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:56.680
true crime author and researcher JT. Townsend, whose book Summer's

23
00:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.040
Almost Gone dives into the brick of murders, one of

24
00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:05.079
Ohio's most haunting cold cases in his own decades long investigation.

25
00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:10.280
And also with me as my co host is Brian Santana,

26
00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:13.240
author of Murder on Campus that dives into the murder

27
00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:17.319
of Virginia Olsen at unc Asheville. We are going to

28
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:22.000
explore everything about the Brica case, the investigation, the possible motives,

29
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:26.599
and the suspect that possibly got away with murder. Thank

30
00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:29.000
you both for joining me today. I'm very excited.

31
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.120
Thank you, Courtney, Thank you for having me.

32
00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:32.879
Glad to be here.

33
00:02:33.360 --> 00:02:35.840
So I want to start at the very beginning. JT.

34
00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:38.479
You were just a boy when the Brickas were murdered.

35
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:41.639
What was it about the case that resonated with you

36
00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.520
so much that you spent decades conducting your own investigation?

37
00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.199
Courtney, I was starting in seventh grade. We had a

38
00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:55.400
serial killer dubbed the Cincinnati Strangler, running loose in the city.

39
00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.879
And between the fourth and fifth killings of the Cincinnati

40
00:02:59.879 --> 00:03:03.960
SI Strangler, this beautiful family was butchered in their own home.

41
00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:10.639
And in Cincinnati, the fertilizer hit the fan largest law

42
00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:15.159
enforcement mobilization in city history. And I don't know what

43
00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:17.599
it was. I'm in seventh grade and we're discussing this

44
00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:22.000
in current events class, and I just became obsessed with it.

45
00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:24.360
I remember talking about it that day. It was on

46
00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.520
a Thursday, and as I detail in the book, that

47
00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:31.360
night I had a horrible nightmare that the brick of

48
00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:35.159
killer was killing my family and I wet the bed.

49
00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:41.159
I was twelve, and that has started a lifetime obsession.

50
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:41.719
You know.

51
00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:47.120
Somebody asked me, what is obsession? And I said, obsession

52
00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.680
has no reason. That's why it's obsession. But I can

53
00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:54.280
sum up for you about this case. This was an

54
00:03:54.319 --> 00:04:01.000
investigation that stalemated when detectives were engulfed by a case

55
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.800
beyond belief, certainly beyond the parameters of nineteen sixty six,

56
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:10.599
and you had a prime suspect who lawyered up lived

57
00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:13.439
the rest of his life under a cloud of suspicion.

58
00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.319
I can't tell you how often I've thought about this guy.

59
00:04:16.839 --> 00:04:19.399
What part of his brain. Did he store this in

60
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.079
all these years he went on about his business and

61
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:27.439
his life. I can't imagine where you put that in

62
00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:30.680
your head, you know, when you're shaving. Oh, I murdered

63
00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.399
three people ten years ago. I'm late for work though.

64
00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:38.519
And lastly, a community here that is so obsessed with

65
00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:42.160
this crime. The rumors are still flying after sixty years.

66
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.240
I feel a brick a rumor about once every two weeks,

67
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:48.680
and you go over into the West Side and it's like,

68
00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:52.079
this thing just happened the other day. So I guess

69
00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:56.439
that would address my obsession and certainly the city's obsession.

70
00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:01.199
And you can't ignore what was going on. In nineteen

71
00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:06.959
sixty six, we had Richard Speck killed eight nurses in Chicago.

72
00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:11.199
Two weeks later, Charles Whitman snipes thirteen people from the

73
00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.680
tower at the University of Texas. And a week before

74
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:18.759
the Brickers are murdered, we have Valerie Percy, daughter of

75
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.800
the senatorial candidate Charles Percy, murdered in her own home

76
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.759
a week before the Brickers. So we had these cases

77
00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:31.600
of national crimes with no template. I mean, the Speck

78
00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.959
and Witmen crimes. We'd never seen mass murder on a

79
00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.519
scale like that. Of course, we're seeing it now all

80
00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:42.439
the time, but in nineteen sixty six, these were unprecedented crimes,

81
00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:45.920
and that's kind of the backdrop. And then you throw

82
00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.000
in the Cincinnati strangler run and loose, and then the

83
00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.319
Brickers are murdered. And I was already interested in true crime,

84
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:56.160
but when it came home to roost in my city,

85
00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:57.959
that's when I knew that I was going to be

86
00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:58.839
a true crime guy.

87
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:02.639
JT If I could follow up on that, you mentioned

88
00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.279
hearing about this when you were twelve and the brick

89
00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:07.639
A case was talked about in your school as part

90
00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:09.959
of the current events. You talk about a lot of

91
00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.720
other crimes that were taking place both within Cincinnati and

92
00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:18.560
also nationally, like you just described, were you equally aware

93
00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.000
of those other crimes? So the brick acase was shocking,

94
00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:24.360
it happened, But I was curious when I was reading this,

95
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.240
were you kind of aware of the atmosphere and context

96
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.720
in retrospect looking back, or as a twelve year old,

97
00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:31.800
were you aware of these other crimes happening, And then

98
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:32.879
Brica also occurred.

99
00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:39.079
You really couldn't avoid the Richard spec Charles Whitman Valerie Percy.

100
00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:44.120
These were national headlines, stunning crimes, and I do cover

101
00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:49.040
them in the book. Richard Speck slaughtered eight student nurses.

102
00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.759
Charles Whitman up on the tower, but he had already

103
00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.639
killed his mother and his wife, so he was a

104
00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:01.000
dead man walking. And the Percy mansion on Lake Michigan, Chicago,

105
00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:05.240
this was an upscale enclave, and someone invaded this home

106
00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.560
and murdered her. Really couldn't escape it. And you know,

107
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:11.959
I had followed the Boston strangler case a little bit,

108
00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:15.600
and so I'm following the Cincinnati strangler and then all

109
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:20.040
of a sudden, the Brickers are murdered, and it just

110
00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.319
imprinted on me at that point everything that was going

111
00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.439
on that year, and I thought, oh my god, it's

112
00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:32.040
happening here in Cincinnati, and it affected everybody I knew.

113
00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.480
My mom talked about getting mace and getting a guard dog,

114
00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:38.600
and we weren't even living where the strangler would strike.

115
00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:43.639
But the brick A case really got to me. And

116
00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:49.839
I'm twelve, and within four days of this crime, the

117
00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.879
rumor was out that she was having an affair with

118
00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:58.240
a veterinarian and how that got down to a twelve

119
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:03.160
year old in seventh grade. I'm not sure, but apparently

120
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:08.360
everybody seemed to wear almost immediately that there was a veterinarian,

121
00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:12.720
A certainly a upstanding citizen in the community was possibly

122
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:16.199
involved in an adulterous affair with the female victim. I'm

123
00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.279
not even sure I even understood what adulttery was, but

124
00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:24.920
it was really astounding how quickly that theory and those

125
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.720
rumors started running through Cincinnati and running through my head.

126
00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.919
I definitely want to come back to the veterinarian, But

127
00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:36.840
tell me about the murders. What were the last few

128
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:40.000
days like for the Bricas and what happened immediately after,

129
00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.759
because it seemed like there was a lot going on

130
00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:49.200
the days leading up to and immediately after this crime

131
00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:50.000
is committed.

132
00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:53.879
You know, you get a crime like this, Courtney, What

133
00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:58.519
did the victim do differently in the last days of

134
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:02.799
her life? And for Lynda Bricca, she took a job

135
00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.840
at the Glenway Animal Hospital a half mile from where

136
00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.759
she lived on the West Side, and she started on Monday,

137
00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:15.639
worked Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, didn't work the rest of the week,

138
00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.360
and her family's murdered on Sunday. I can find nothing

139
00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:25.039
else that was out of the ordinary for her, except

140
00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.399
the fact that she took this job at this veterinary clinic,

141
00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:36.120
and she had contact with the head veterinarian really all

142
00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.000
six days leading up to the murder, either through work

143
00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:45.519
or through meetings, clandestine meetings, And her marriage to Jerry

144
00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:48.879
was definitely floundering, a lot of tension in that marriage.

145
00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.120
Certainly had a major argument between them on Wednesday night

146
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:56.279
over her working at the clinic, and things seemed to

147
00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.440
be coming to some kind of head. But I keep

148
00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.720
going back to she went to work for the Glenway

149
00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.320
Animal Hospital. It's the only thing out of the ordinary.

150
00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.919
And if she hadn't taken that job, are we even

151
00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:13.080
talking about this now?

152
00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.320
What about the fight that Jerry got into on Sunday

153
00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:17.720
before their murders.

154
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.919
That was Wednesday night. That was Linda's last night at

155
00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.159
the clinic. She came home two hours late. She was drunk,

156
00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.759
indicated that a cat had been brought in and she

157
00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:34.840
and the veterinarian had worked to save it but couldn't.

158
00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:39.399
And then they had drinks and she was late picking

159
00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.279
up Debbie from the babysitter, and Jerry went ballistic and

160
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.600
apparently threatened to go over and beat the veterinarian up.

161
00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:51.440
Now he didn't. Nothing came of that, but it was

162
00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:54.799
definitely an argument in front of neighbors. You know, she's

163
00:10:54.840 --> 00:11:01.080
two hours late picking up Debbie. Jerry's there and she's intoxicated.

164
00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:04.320
What was their dynamic like then, because obviously they have

165
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:08.399
this argument. She doesn't want her working at the animal hospital.

166
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:13.440
There were some moments in the book where you discuss

167
00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.879
where Linda was not happy in their marriage. She had

168
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.360
a trial separation when she goes to Florida. You know,

169
00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:24.440
would that have led to a possible affair.

170
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:29.200
Well, she'd known Fred Lininger. He's our main suspect since

171
00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:33.759
nineteen sixty three. We know one thing about Linda Brickett's

172
00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:39.440
that she was obsessive about her animals, and I get that.

173
00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.720
I got a couple of cats here, but this appeared

174
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:47.080
to go beyond normal. She was constantly running down to

175
00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:52.039
the veterinary clinic with questions and issues, and apparently she'd

176
00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.600
been pestering Lining her to go to work there, and

177
00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:58.919
he finally gave in on Monday. So she sees him

178
00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:03.120
on Monday season, on Tuesday season, on Wednesday, makes an

179
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:06.360
urgent call to the clinic. On Thursday night, as recorded

180
00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.519
by his answering service. I believe they had a rendezvous

181
00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:12.480
that night. She is seen with him on Friday at

182
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.600
an archery range, and she's seen with him in a

183
00:12:14.679 --> 00:12:22.120
car on Saturday for the murder. And according to the autopsy,

184
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.399
sometime that Saturday, Lindabriker had sexual intercourse with a man

185
00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.200
who left seminel fluid in her and his blood type

186
00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:37.480
did not match Jerry Brickers. And then Sunday we have

187
00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:41.000
almost no information about her at all. She called in

188
00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.320
a prescription about noon. Jerry is at work like he

189
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.120
always is. The guy worked eighty hours a week, and

190
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.279
we have very little insight into her last hours. Jerry

191
00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:54.519
had a couple phone conversations. He was flying out the

192
00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.840
next day on business, and then right about nine o'clock

193
00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:02.120
nine to fifteen went down. He did go to a

194
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.480
store to pick up some milk and orange juice. That

195
00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.039
clerk was one of the last people to see him,

196
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.279
and then a neighbor spoke with him briefly as that

197
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.440
he was taking out his garbage can and he walked

198
00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:17.399
inside his house to be murdered on a rainy Sunday night.

199
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.600
Something I'm wondering if just taking a step back thinking

200
00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:23.639
about the research and the timeline that you were just describing.

201
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:25.919
One of the things I know that many critics have

202
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.480
praised about Somers Almost Gone is just the incredibly detailed timeline,

203
00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:35.000
really walking the reader through the last week and hours

204
00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.600
of their life. And as someone who also had the

205
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.480
experience of recently writing and researching a book, I appreciate

206
00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:43.120
how difficult that is, and I was really impressed with

207
00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.879
the amount of detail you went into. Something I was

208
00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:50.600
curious about was so you became really obsessed? Was your word?

209
00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.200
I think by this case, when you were around twelve

210
00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.919
years old, before you formally started researching and writing this book,

211
00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:01.320
were you kind of informally collect being articles or doing

212
00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.200
what could be considered maybe light research. And I guess

213
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:06.480
I'm wondering, when we're thinking about some of these details,

214
00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.720
like the timeline and other thing, at what moment did

215
00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.399
some of those details start to take shape over the

216
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.080
course of your history kind of with this case.

217
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.600
That's a good question. I never lost sight of this case.

218
00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.600
I remembered when I was in college talking to my

219
00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.840
roommates about it. They weren't even from Cincinnati, and I

220
00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.600
just kind of kept on it as a single man,

221
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:32.480
I was dating a girl on the West Side, and

222
00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.639
she says, why are we always driving by this house

223
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:36.519
on Greenway? And I said, because that's where the breakers

224
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.840
were killed, you know. And we did that constantly. I

225
00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.840
actually knocked on the door in nineteen seventy nine and

226
00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.120
told the people I wanted to take a few pictures

227
00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:49.440
of their house. I didn't want to disturb them. They

228
00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:54.320
invited me in and I basically told them everything I knew,

229
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.519
tried to show them the logistics of the crime. They

230
00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:01.120
thanked me, got my license number, and called the police

231
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.360
on me. In nineteen eighty two, I made an appointment

232
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.519
with a real estate agent when it was on the market,

233
00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:10.240
and I took pictures inside the house. I said, yeah,

234
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.320
I have to send these to my fiance. She's away.

235
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.679
He never said a word about this crime, and we're

236
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.840
standing there right in the bedroom where it happened. Never

237
00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:22.480
said a word. I think he knew what I was doing, though,

238
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.840
So I'm kind of haunting the house at this point.

239
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:32.679
And then I started writing a novel about it. Changed

240
00:15:32.679 --> 00:15:36.360
some names. I called them the Deckers, and this novel

241
00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.919
was going nowhere nowhere fast. But it really all came

242
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.240
to a head. I got colon cancer in two thousand

243
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.519
and seven, and I wrote my first book, Queensidy Gothic,

244
00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:50.600
while I was taking chemotherapy, and it featured a brick

245
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.799
a chapter. And suddenly I retired and became a true

246
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:59.240
crime writer. And the key thing, there's one of the

247
00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:04.519
key things. The county was guarding this file zealously. And

248
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:06.799
that's why the rumors are going, what are they hiding

249
00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:09.159
in this file? Why can't anybody get in this file?

250
00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:13.639
And I said, hey, freedom of information dudes. They go, oh, no,

251
00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.039
this is an open case. And I said, well that

252
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:21.559
doesn't matter, and I filed an injunction against them. They

253
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.840
called me in dropped that injunction. Here's the file I

254
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:30.759
was in twenty fourteen and suddenly suddenly, Brian, the brick

255
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.919
of file is right in front of me. Here are

256
00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:35.879
the crime scene photos. I've been thinking about this case

257
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.919
from nineteen sixty six to twenty fourteen. There it all

258
00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.120
is right in front of me. And I'll tell you this.

259
00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:47.960
I had always thought it was a lone killer. I

260
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.919
looked at the pictures. I looked at Jerry's Jerry Brick

261
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:56.120
as physique. I looked at Linda wearing that slinky neglige

262
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.240
that night. It's a Sunday night, and I immediate like,

263
00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:02.759
looking at Jerry, looking at the layout of the house

264
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.720
and the crime scene, I'm like, one guy could not

265
00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.720
have handled these three people and these two dogs. And

266
00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.160
I'm not a conspiracy guy. There was more than one

267
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:14.200
person involved in this.

268
00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:17.880
I agree with that, and I want to come back

269
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:21.960
to the other people that potentially were involved. But from

270
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.039
the second the police got there, there's already problems with

271
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.640
the investigation. What were some of the problems that occurred

272
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.400
and how big of an impact do you think it

273
00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:31.200
had on the case.

274
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:36.440
Well? Huge, Again, it's nineteen sixty six. We lost the

275
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:40.599
first forty eight. They were murdered Sunday night, sometime between

276
00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.720
nine and ten, and even with garbage cans sitting out

277
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.559
in newspapers piling up, the neighbors seem strangely uncurious. So

278
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:54.599
they investigated Tuesday night, pushed open the door for forty

279
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.640
eight hours of death and decay come wafting out to

280
00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.160
these people and they know there's something bad has happened

281
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:02.960
and in there. So we've lost the first forty eight.

282
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.839
I mean, you're canvassing for witnesses. You know, how many

283
00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:10.519
people remember what they had for dinner two or three

284
00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:16.400
nights ago. So that hamstrung investigation right away, and the

285
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.440
call went out is unknown trouble. So you've got police,

286
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:23.079
you've got EMTs, you've got firemen, you've got firemen's brother

287
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.960
in laws. You got thirty to fifty people trooping through

288
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.519
this house. There is no protocol, there's no signing sheet.

289
00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.680
They're not wearing booties, they're not wearing protective clothing, they're

290
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.720
not wearing gloves. And this is nineteen sixty six. There

291
00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.480
are no forensic guys. These are just overwork detectives that

292
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:46.440
have to do every single job, collect evidence, take photographs,

293
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:51.079
preserve the scene. And this is typical of most crime

294
00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:57.480
scenes back then. There was contamination for sure. That being said,

295
00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.000
I believe the evidence in the two bedrooms, the mass

296
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:03.839
bedroom with Jerry and Linda's bodies in the bedroom next

297
00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.279
with Debbie. I believe the evidence in those rooms was

298
00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:12.720
protected enough that they came up with a DNA profile

299
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.160
in two thousand and two, which is not a very

300
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:18.680
good profile. One of these not an OJ Simpson number.

301
00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:20.839
You know, it's not a one in seventy million have

302
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.160
this profile. It's like a one in thirty. That's not

303
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.359
good odds in the DNA game. But the police told

304
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.839
me we're going to send this through cotis known felons,

305
00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:33.039
and I said, well, if you won't get a hit,

306
00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.799
they didn't, you know, I mean, I mean, our doer

307
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.519
in this case is an alpha male and a prominent

308
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.920
citizen is not a felon. But think a lot of

309
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.599
people that read about this case think, well, they queered

310
00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.119
the crime scene, you know, and that just queered the

311
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.759
whole thing. No, I don't agree with that, and I

312
00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:56.759
think there's DNA now that could be retested, and that's

313
00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.680
what I'm working on to get it done. So there's

314
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:04.319
the first rumor, Brian, the crime scene is hopelessly compromised.

315
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.720
I don't think it was hopelessly So this is just

316
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.839
a function of crime scenes back then. You know, you

317
00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.680
don't have a sign in lag, you don't have a

318
00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.720
blood guy, you don't have a spatter guy, you don't

319
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:19.240
have a fiber guy. The second rumor was that they

320
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:21.480
were covering up for the suspect because he was such

321
00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:27.720
a prominent businessman. And I discount that. I think you

322
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.920
guys know, after a second interview, this thing stalemated. He

323
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.559
had a good attorney, I mean a really good attorney,

324
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.119
and he put conditions forth that the police didn't want

325
00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:41.920
to accept. They never got that third interview. I'm sure

326
00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:44.880
they would have made an arrest at it, and this

327
00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.160
thing stalemated. I don't think they treated this guy with

328
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:53.319
kid gloves. But conversely, that this suspect had been a

329
00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:55.519
guy who carried a lunch Payo was a bag boy

330
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.440
at IgA, I don't think he would have been handled

331
00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:02.119
so carefully with such deference. So those are the two

332
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.640
main rumors, and I really don't think either one of

333
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.160
them has a huge bearing necessarily on why this case

334
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:09.000
didn't get solved.

335
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:16.039
Linda's personality and perceived over its sexuality is a prominent

336
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:18.640
focus of the investigation. It's prominent focus in your book.

337
00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:23.839
What made you and the investigator zero in on this

338
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:28.759
as a big factor in why they were murdered?

339
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:34.279
I think the county investigators pushed off on the right foot.

340
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:38.480
They indicated this was a personal cause homicide. You know,

341
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.720
this was not a serial killer, This was not a

342
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.359
robbery gone wrong, and it wasn't even really a sex crime,

343
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.759
though I believe sex had something to do with it.

344
00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.039
They decided early on that Linda was the target, and

345
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.839
I think they decided that correctly. So I've had people

346
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:02.519
occasionally accused me of slutch shaming Linda, and I really

347
00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:06.519
don't mean to do that. She was not hell on wheels.

348
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.160
She wasn't going around doing every guy. There's rumors that

349
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.799
when she was an airline stewardess she was a call girl.

350
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.720
And I hear these rumors about how they found her

351
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:20.400
call girl notebook in the murder scene from when she

352
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:24.400
was a nineteen year old stewardess. It's ridiculous. She was

353
00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.640
a stewardess for eight months and she dated Jerry for

354
00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:28.799
four of those. She was not a nineteen year old

355
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:34.680
call girl. So but I think, and I state this unequivocably,

356
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:41.279
she had one affair that turned deadly. She was the target,

357
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:46.759
you know, Courtney. Initially, in my initial years of looking

358
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:52.000
at this case, I'm thinking one killer. It's lining her.

359
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.359
He's obsessed with her. She breaks it off, but I

360
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:59.880
can't have her, nobody can. I don't think that now.

361
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:07.039
I think she was a severe threat to Fredlininger his cushy,

362
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:09.839
upper middle class lifestyle. And I've seen the house he

363
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.559
lived in, very nice, very nice house. Longtime married guy

364
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.119
with five kids, making good money on the West Side.

365
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.160
And I may tell you about the West side of Cincinnati. Man,

366
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.200
it is a small town city. That was That was

367
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:31.119
the first. That was my chapter one title. Rumors are

368
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:34.240
rampant on the West Side. Everybody seems to know what

369
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:39.039
everybody's doing on the West Side. I don't live there,

370
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.359
but I'm over there a lot, and it's just it's

371
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:44.119
just that kind of place, you know. It all came

372
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.119
back to Linda. She was so beautiful. And I'll tell

373
00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.480
you on my on my Bricka Unlocked group, I had

374
00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:55.440
a guy who lives in Barrington. He took some photos

375
00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.440
of the house Linda grew up in, and I knew

376
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:03.640
her parents were fairly wealthy, but shame on JT. I

377
00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:10.039
had never eyeballed this house. It's a damn mansion. This

378
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:13.720
was a poor, little rich girl. You should see this

379
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.680
house and grounds, and yet here she is living in

380
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:24.240
this tiny tri level hovel with Jerry, after growing up

381
00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:29.200
in this massive house. I never understood that about her,

382
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:36.319
how privilege her upbringing was. So Jerry and Debbie were

383
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.400
collateral damage. Linda was the target but I don't think

384
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.680
this was rage. I don't think this was passion. I

385
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:50.000
think it was fear, certainly rage against the two adults.

386
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:54.319
I think Jerry is killed while resisting. His throat is cut.

387
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.839
They put socks in his mouth to silence him and

388
00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:01.640
put tape to gag him. Linda is stabbed on the bed,

389
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:04.440
face to face with the killer and thrown on top

390
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.680
of Jerry's body. And then when that anger subsides, there's

391
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.440
a discussion. Debbie's under the bed in the next room.

392
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:19.759
This poor child talked like she was ten. Her precocious

393
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:25.240
nature doomed her because she could certainly identify Uncle Fred,

394
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:29.519
and they could not leave this child alone. They could

395
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:33.880
not leave her alive. I've seen this in other murders. Specifically,

396
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.160
I'm thinking that Lizzie Borden case where she wailed on

397
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.880
the stepmother who she hated, and a ninety minutes later

398
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:45.720
she kills her father out of fear for him discovering

399
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:47.519
what she's done and trying to make it look like

400
00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:51.039
a maniac got in the house. The adults killed in

401
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:54.279
a bit of a rage, the child killed out of fear.

402
00:25:55.559 --> 00:26:00.640
Because people keep asking me why did they kill the child?

403
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:06.200
This child could identify people and the murder of Debbie.

404
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.359
And I've seen them. I've seen the pictures. I've seen

405
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.440
the morg photos and the crime scene photos. I can't

406
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.640
even look at the pictures of Debbie, you know, I

407
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:17.880
get dispassionate when I'm looking at crime scene photos of adults.

408
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.200
But those pictures of Debbie stretched out in that bedroom

409
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:27.200
where there's stuffed animal right outside of her reach. Oh,

410
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.039
I don't think they felt they had any choice. So

411
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.920
this is a personal cause homicide with one of the

412
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:39.799
killers emotionally entangled with one of the victims. It's definitely Linda.

413
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:42.920
I guess I'm wondering along those lines that was that

414
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:45.519
was something that you had not considered before when you

415
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.160
finally get a hold of this case file. That's that

416
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.640
And you're the first person, if I'm correct, they ever

417
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:52.039
have access to the full case file?

418
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:53.079
Was there?

419
00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:56.559
I'm assuming there was new information that did surprised you

420
00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:58.200
when you were going through it that you didn't know before.

421
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:00.920
Is the first person have access? And I'm wondering was

422
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.799
there any were there particular pivotal elements for you in

423
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.680
the case file that really either shaped helped shape your

424
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:12.039
conclusions or that that maybe gave you pause with any

425
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:14.119
of your preconceived ideas before you had access to the

426
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:14.599
case file.

427
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.519
Good question. Some things were redacted from me, but I

428
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:22.039
got to see. You know, I've seen all the crime

429
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:24.519
scene photos. I've seen the Morgue photos. I've got the

430
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.799
entire interview file, three hundred and twenty interviews, and they

431
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:33.759
flagged sixteen of them as highly suspicious. And that would

432
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:40.240
include Fred Lininger's interview. They interviewed eight veterinarians, Linda liked veterinarians.

433
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:45.240
Three more of those were flagged. And then I always

434
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:49.440
like to say, Brian, every good mystery has a wild card.

435
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.559
Where's the thing on a left field that JAT didn't

436
00:27:53.559 --> 00:28:01.440
see coming? And that would be Glenn skipper Le well

437
00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:05.240
known local kitties show host in Cincinnati. I was on

438
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:08.920
his show with a bunch of cub scouts. This was

439
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.640
six months after the murders. I didn't know he was

440
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.680
a suspect, but the guy was a bit creepy and

441
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.920
he was quite a lowthereo Mary guy was not a

442
00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.640
fanatic about it, and bingo, here's his interview. And he

443
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:30.000
is best friends with Fred Liiner. They are tight like glue.

444
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:35.359
And they flagged this interview as being evasive. They said,

445
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:39.720
Glenn Ryle is obviously a close friend of Fred Liinger

446
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:43.759
and we cannot expect him to cooperate. Glenn Ryle is

447
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:48.160
a former Marine or was Special Forces trained to kill.

448
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:52.279
If Fred Lininger is having a problem with Jerry Brica

449
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:57.079
and his life's about to implode, his comfortable life, who's

450
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.799
got his back? Glenn Ryle or one of these vets.

451
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:03.680
One of these other vets Herman Raider, and it's in

452
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.759
the book had stabbed people before. These are all cohorts

453
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:10.920
of doctor Fredleininger. So I think what surprised me back

454
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:16.200
to the original question the flag interviews. I really didn't

455
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:20.440
realize how some of these other vets in a locally

456
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:25.880
well known television personality were in this investigation and their

457
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.839
interviews were flagged as possible accomplices. I didn't didn't see

458
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:31.319
that coming.

459
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:34.480
Well, I guess speaking to that, is this one of

460
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.119
those cases where there's almost too many suspects, at least

461
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.279
early on for the original investigators. Because I think for

462
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:43.319
a lot of listeners, when they hear the word cold case,

463
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.559
if they haven't done the kind of research you have before,

464
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:49.839
they might imagine or be tempted to imagine cases where

465
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.240
the authorities don't really have a lot of really concrete

466
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.759
ideas or leads or suspects. But just from you describe

467
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:59.480
a number of them in the book, it seems like

468
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:02.799
there's a i lot of really suspicious people, both immediately

469
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:05.599
around the neighborhood in the city. It seems like there's

470
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:06.880
no shortage of people you can look to.

471
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.559
I think that speaks to the thoroughness of this investigation.

472
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.599
And Brian, consider this. There's no computers, there's not even

473
00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.599
any iPhones. This is knocking on doors, this is shoe leather,

474
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:24.640
this is informants. And they started off in the right foot,

475
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.160
and it's the headlines are there and I'm looking at

476
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:31.200
him now. Neighbors think Brick a killer, no stranger. This

477
00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:34.319
was the second day, did murder? No brick as indication

478
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.200
said he did so of all the six classifications of murder,

479
00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:40.960
they started off on the right foot. This is personal cause,

480
00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.599
this is somebody who knew the victims. So then, what

481
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.519
can you do in a nineteen sixty six environment when

482
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.759
you don't have the tools we have today? It's about elimination.

483
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:56.319
Who can we eliminate. And they looked at everybody that

484
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.880
had contact with this family, a family, friends, co workers,

485
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.119
people in the neighborhood, the garbage man, the male man.

486
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:07.519
If you gave Jerry a quote for trimming his trees

487
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.440
two years ago, they talked to you. If you did

488
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.839
a quote for carpeting in the brick of house, they

489
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:15.400
talked to you. They went through that brick of phone book,

490
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.400
every babysitter, every coworker. They interviewed twenty people at Jerry's work.

491
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:25.240
And the whole idea is to eliminate because it's a

492
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:30.240
logistical nightmare, as you stated, it really is. So how

493
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.279
quickly can we start eliminating these people that had contact

494
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:36.839
with this family? And eventually it narrowed down to about

495
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.960
five people. Three of them are vets, one of them

496
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.079
is a kiddy show host. And these are the people

497
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.839
that they couldn't specifically eliminate, and doctor fred Lininger remains

498
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.680
at the top of that list. But I felt for

499
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:55.000
these guys. They didn't have the tools we have today.

500
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.680
You know, and think back to Courtney's question about Linda's

501
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.240
movement the week of the murder. Imagine if she'd been

502
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:07.759
on social media. Imagine if we had her online footprint

503
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:11.440
that week. We don't. We don't have anything like that.

504
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:16.359
People had landlines. I remember that this is a logistical nightmare,

505
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:20.119
and they pushed off in the right direction. The goal

506
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:25.519
was elimination. Let's interview these guys and let's close them out,

507
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.279
and I think they did a really good job of that.

508
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.480
Virtually everybody who had even remote contact with this family

509
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.319
was interviewed. It's staggering when you look at this interview file,

510
00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.279
it's huge.

511
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:42.039
Speaking of the media and then doing all of these

512
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.319
stories on the Brick goes What was the media's impact

513
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:48.240
on the investigation? Because they're simultaneously talking about the Brick

514
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:51.160
of murders, but they're also talking about the Cincinnati Strangler.

515
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.279
Was there any sort of weird overlap that impacted the

516
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.160
investigation either positively or negatively?

517
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:03.599
Many of them? You can't take the Strangler away from Bricka.

518
00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:06.720
You know, I've had some people that reviewed my book

519
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.559
and why did he put all that strangler stuff in there?

520
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.759
You know, why did he talk about those other cases?

521
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.319
And I don't think I spent a lot of time

522
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:18.240
on him, But what was I supposed to say? And

523
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.200
by the way, we had a serial killer that killed

524
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.960
seven women. Back to Bricka, No, I uh, you know,

525
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.319
ninety percent of the book's BRICA. The strangler is the

526
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:29.720
B plot, and you hate to assign a serial killer

527
00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:34.319
that killed seven women to a B plot. But interesting

528
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:38.960
headlines in the media Bricker killer believe white because the

529
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:43.519
strangler had been identified as a short, slightly built black man,

530
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.119
and there was tons of racial tension going on. This

531
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:50.880
is nineteen sixty six, and people were worried that there

532
00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.759
was going to be some vigilanti action against black people

533
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:57.839
because of the strangler. And the lead investigator of BRICA

534
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:01.000
made sure he got that out there. The strangler did

535
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.599
not kill this family, and the brick a killer was white.

536
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:08.039
I thought, wow, that's interesting. They really felt like they

537
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:11.119
had to put that information out there fairly quickly. So

538
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:14.679
we've got we've got competing stories here, Bricka and the

539
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:19.440
strangler and eventually Bricca and I've got the headlines right here.

540
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:24.280
One brick of suspect remains police admit, and eventually, a

541
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.280
year after the crime, the prosecutor said, I know who

542
00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.880
killed the brick as he's hiding behind his lawyer, So

543
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:35.039
why didn't they mention his name? That's still I still

544
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.760
wonder about that because I talked with Mike Allen, he's

545
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.320
a friend of mine and a former prosecutor, and he said, absolutely,

546
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.800
a legitimate suspect, I would have put his name out there,

547
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:47.960
you know, that's not libelous or anything. But they didn't,

548
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:54.320
and that tells me the status of Fredliner. And I

549
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.519
also know that the prosecutor at the time, Mel Ruger,

550
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:03.119
was close friends with Langer's lawyer, a former prosecutor, so

551
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.400
I'm not saying he's covering up. But they kept this

552
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:12.440
guy's identity out of the papers, and yet people seemed

553
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:14.880
to know it was lining her. So I think the

554
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.920
racial thing was interesting. The way they wanted to make

555
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:20.559
sure that people knew this wasn't the strangler, it wasn't

556
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.159
a racial killing, and the fact that the prime suspect's

557
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:30.360
identity was closely guarded, those were definitely unusual kind of factors,

558
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:30.800
I think.

559
00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:34.599
So we have Lininger, he's the main person that the

560
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.880
police police kind of considered to be a prime suspect.

561
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.360
Who you consider to be the prime suspect. There were

562
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:41.880
three people spotted outside of the Bricka's home on the

563
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:45.719
night they were killed. Two men and presumably a woman.

564
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:49.880
If we go with the assumption that the second person

565
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:55.039
was either another veterinarian or the show host, who would

566
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.719
the woman have been. That's what I kind of can't

567
00:35:58.760 --> 00:35:59.679
figure out.

568
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:03.079
Well, Accordney, I've given that a lot of thought. We

569
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.119
had three people seen by two separate witnesses about eleven thirty.

570
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.039
Now the murders have already gone down. I think the

571
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:13.119
murders went down by nine thirty or ten. Why are

572
00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:16.280
these people still there? And why is that newspaper missing

573
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.760
from the driveway as well? How long were people in

574
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.360
and out of that house? But I believe those people

575
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:24.199
were involved. This is a Sunday at rainy Sunday night,

576
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:27.880
there's no other cars on the street, there's no other

577
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.360
people out, and here's these people getting in front of

578
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.199
in a car in front of a house where we

579
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.360
know in hindsight that a grizzly triple homicide had just occurred.

580
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:42.199
I don't believe in a coincidence like that. I have

581
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:47.000
come to look at this in different ways. And again,

582
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:52.280
if we're looking at this crime of fear of exposure,

583
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:58.400
of scandal, of shame, in interruption to Lininger's cushy lifestyle,

584
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.360
who do you pick to help you? Do you pick

585
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.960
friends or do you pick family? And lately I've been

586
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:11.880
looking at Fred Lininger's wife, Lynn Lninger, who astoundingly is

587
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.920
the only person in the interview file who refused to

588
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:19.440
be interviewed. They went to her house and she gave

589
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.480
him the lawyer's card and was like, Nope, not happening.

590
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:28.559
And her brother William Row, who for some reason, was

591
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:32.880
never interviewed. And here I am saying they interviewed everybody

592
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.760
that had contact with his family in Bingo. There's an exception.

593
00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:38.400
I see no interview by the brother in law in

594
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.400
the file at all. And I'm not a big conspiracy guy.

595
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:44.440
I mean, what do they say three people can keep

596
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.440
a secret if two of them are dead? Are you

597
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.920
going to go with your family or friends to keep

598
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.679
a secret for the rest of your life? And now

599
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:56.199
I'm literally wondering was it Lynn Lininger and her brother

600
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:59.760
who helped? Because when you look at this kind of crime,

601
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.039
wives find their husband cheating, they don't seem to get

602
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.280
mad at the husband, to get mad at the other woman.

603
00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:11.000
Who could he trust to keep this kind of secret?

604
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:16.760
And as we know, Courtney, Fred and Nlninger died in

605
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.360
an attempted suicide pact. In two thousand and four, Fred died,

606
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:25.239
Lynn lapsed into a Cooman died nine months later. That's unusual.

607
00:38:26.360 --> 00:38:31.320
And you drive from Sarasota, Florida to Cincinnati for this

608
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:36.400
suicide pact. And interesting they had just publicized the DNA

609
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:39.960
profile the year before. And I'm not sure if the

610
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:44.559
liningers were aware of this or not, but suddenly think

611
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.960
how risky this is, Courtney. They drive all the way

612
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:52.400
up to Hamilton County, that's the jurisdiction of the crime.

613
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.199
And they made sure they were in the city of Cincinnati,

614
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.039
not the county regions, in this hotel, and they killed themselves.

615
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.440
But that's risky. But by the time anybody understands that, hey,

616
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.079
this guy that he and his wife that tried to

617
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:12.199
kill themselves. The guy who died, he's in the ground.

618
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:17.400
But that's the bricks suspect. Oh, it seemed to go

619
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:21.280
right past everybody. What a ballsy move to come back home.

620
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.559
Maybe they just wanted to make sure their kids didn't

621
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:28.480
have to transport bodies or anything. But if somebody had said, hey,

622
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:34.280
Fred Lininger, isn't he the guy, shouldn't we get DNA, Yeah,

623
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:39.679
didn't happen. That's a fascinating end to his saga as

624
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:41.639
a prime suspect, because I don't think a lot of

625
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.679
husbands and wives try to kill themselves in a suicide pact.

626
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:49.599
And you know, she's been married to this guy for

627
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.880
fifty years or more, and for thirty eight of those

628
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.199
years she's been the prime suspect in a grizzly triple homicide.

629
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.639
So what was that last conversation like the doorway to

630
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:04.239
the next world or did she know all about it

631
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:07.280
because she was there? And for you, that really addresses

632
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.199
that problem. Was like you were saying, one of the

633
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:11.880
questions I was thinking about, if this is someone totally

634
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:15.880
unconnected to the family, the likelihood that this person goes

635
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:18.960
the rest of their life without ever alluding to or

636
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.079
even anyone in their life suspecting or having any clue

637
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.280
that they were it just seems very small, right. It's

638
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:29.800
such a unique, heinous crime. I don't carry that you're

639
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:34.760
just a friend. Family stuff is different. You know, family

640
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:38.719
secrets go to the grave sometime. And again I have

641
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:43.079
no evidence other than Lynn lining or refusing to be interviewed.

642
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.400
The only person in the file, Brian refusing an interview,

643
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.760
lining or sat down twice, he didn't refuse, he refused,

644
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:54.920
the third one she refused. And the brother, for whatever reason,

645
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:57.599
I find nothing in the file on this was never

646
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:02.639
spoken to at all. I attempted to interview her brother

647
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:06.840
after his death. His wife I called her on the phone.

648
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:10.559
I told her why I was wanting to speak with her. Click.

649
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:13.880
It was a short conversation. I don't know can draw

650
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.280
conclusions from that as they are, But what kind of

651
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:22.480
pressure is Linda Bricka putting on this guy? I did

652
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:27.000
a forensic profile of the killer. I used the FBI website.

653
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:33.639
Above average intelligence, socially and sexually competent this so far,

654
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:37.000
check and check for Lininger likely to be a skilled worker.

655
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:42.199
Check living with a partner or married, Check controlled mood

656
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:46.239
during the crime. I think one of these guys had

657
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:50.119
to have some control alcohol use associated with the crime.

658
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.800
People have said that he was a borderline alcoholic. And

659
00:41:53.880 --> 00:42:01.719
here's the big one, Brian precipitating situational stress. How's this, Fred,

660
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:06.679
I'm carrying your baby. The leading cause of death for

661
00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:13.719
pregnant women remains homicide. How's that for statistic? Pregnant women

662
00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:17.000
are young, they don't typically die of natural causes. Homicide

663
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:20.840
and automobile accidents are the leading cause of death. Linda

664
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:24.400
had told people at the wedding of Jerry's sister her

665
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:29.239
period was late. Then you dive back into her file

666
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:34.119
before she met Jerry, and her own obstetrician said that

667
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.960
Debbie was not her first pregnancy. There's something from the

668
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.400
file that just floored me. Not her first pregnancy. And

669
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.559
we know she had a six month hiatus in Florida

670
00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:49.480
before she became a stewardess, and that was supposedly because

671
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:52.719
her new boyfriend had died. I have can find no

672
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.639
information on that. And she's in Florida for six months,

673
00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:58.280
just enough time to have a baby and give it

674
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.519
up for adoption possible. There's a child of Lynda Brica

675
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:08.000
that would be probably in her mid sixties out there

676
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:09.360
now is.

677
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:11.480
What that brings us back to the whole idea of

678
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:14.039
forensics in this case. And so you talked about it

679
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.960
wasn't necessarily a limitation that could have been avoided. In

680
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:20.000
nineteen sixty six, the technology was just different. They they

681
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.159
could tell a blood type through a semen sample, They

682
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.519
could do a secretor test and it kind of eliminate

683
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.599
some of the population. But I guess I'm wondering between

684
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:34.920
nineteen sixty six and I guess today, technology has changed significantly,

685
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:39.400
and because this case was so prominent in Cincinnati, was

686
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:43.280
there much an appetite within Hamilton County? As new technologies

687
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:45.800
continue to develop over the years, do they go back

688
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:48.960
and retest materials consistently or were you able to get

689
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:52.480
a sense of how much investment are are they putting

690
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:56.239
into emerging technologies and going back and revisiting this case

691
00:43:56.280 --> 00:44:00.000
between sixty six and I guess today.

692
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.639
This is the most notorious murder mystery in Cincinnati history.

693
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.000
I had thirteen cold cases in my book Queensity Gothic,

694
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:10.960
and I looked at forty cases before I picked the

695
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:15.639
final thirteen. Brick is the King. I've had more rumors

696
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:18.480
about Bricker than all the other cases combined, So one

697
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:24.360
would think that there would continue to be active efforts

698
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:28.039
in bringing this case to a resolution. Previous regimes at

699
00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:33.760
the Sheriff's office absolutely tight lipped nothing. I myself was

700
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.719
ordered out of a county by a previous sheriff when

701
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.800
I showed up there. They guarded that case file. They

702
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:46.639
really guarded it. Zealously, So I really don't know how

703
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:49.079
proactic they were through the years. I will tell you this,

704
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:53.599
the evidence was not preserved well in nineteen sixty six,

705
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.239
and I guess they had no real protocol for that.

706
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.679
And we're down to apparently cigarette butts, neither Jerry Linda smoke,

707
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:07.360
human hair found in Linda's hand and the seminal fluid

708
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.039
taken from her that was either from a rape at

709
00:45:11.039 --> 00:45:16.440
the crime scene or recent intercourse with the killer. And

710
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:19.360
they went back and forth on that was this rape

711
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.159
was this recent intercourse? Here's what bothers me about that.

712
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:25.800
There's a picture in Summer's Almost Gone with the prosecutor

713
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:30.000
with a gurney with thirty boxers of evidence going to

714
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:34.239
the FBI. Where is it? I ask about the piece

715
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:37.639
of tape they found on Jerry's face. Everything in that

716
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:43.840
crime scene, Brian could be reconciled with that house, except

717
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.039
that piece of tape that was brought in from the outside,

718
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.119
very unusual tape. Where is it? Because at this point

719
00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:55.800
it's cigarette butts, the hair, which I'm told is just

720
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:59.480
a root, and the semen, which the coroner told me

721
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:03.480
is basically we just dust. But hey, there's all kinds

722
00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:07.159
of ways to duplicate DNA today.

723
00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:06.440
You know.

724
00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:08.000
And I don't know if we want to talk about

725
00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:10.320
the path forward or not at this point.

726
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:13.639
Just to follow up with something you said about the FBI.

727
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:15.360
I know in the case file there's I think what

728
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:17.480
the FBI, the fingerprints they sent off to the FBI

729
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:21.639
and other things. The FBI, A lot of departments might

730
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.519
not have had standards and protocols during this nineteen sixties

731
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:26.440
for crime scene management like we think of today, at

732
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:29.840
least as you mentioned, but the FBI did have like

733
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:33.440
standards and protocols at least and did are different from today.

734
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.079
But they were the best trained in terms of, like

735
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.159
you know, crime whatever the emerging technology was at the time.

736
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.719
And I guess what was that relationship. Did you get

737
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.840
a sense of the relationship between the FBI and Hamilton County,

738
00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:48.159
because at least they would have had the ability to

739
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:52.239
assist with more resources than what was available at Hamilton County.

740
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.519
Absolutely, they were state of the art in nineteen sixty six,

741
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:58.920
and they were called in on the Strangler Brian as well.

742
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:02.280
And I find that odd FBI typically does not be

743
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.880
involved with murder unless there's kidnapping extortion or interstate flight.

744
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.599
So why were they down here helping with the strangler?

745
00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:14.840
And why did they send evidence on Brica which doesn't

746
00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:19.760
fit FBI involvement. Again one of my many questions, why

747
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:24.280
wasn't this evidence better preserved? But then you can say, well,

748
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:27.239
it's nineteen sixty six. I mean, if you'd have said

749
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.760
DNA to a cop in nineteen sixty six, he'd go,

750
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:32.559
what does that stand for?

751
00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:33.679
DNA?

752
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:38.360
What is that? But nonetheless, and I have a burgeoning

753
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:41.440
file of cold cases from the sixties and seventies that

754
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:46.639
are getting solved quite a lot. And it's delicious when

755
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:51.239
the suspect is still alive and they knock on the door. Now,

756
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:57.039
with Brica, they're all deceased. But I've seen tons of

757
00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:00.199
cold cases closed with deceased suspects and you go to

758
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.639
that family, your father, brother, uncle killed these people in

759
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:07.519
nineteen sixty six, and you go to the family the victims.

760
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:11.199
We have solved this. It is closed. And that is

761
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:16.519
my goal now to get that done. And what does

762
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:19.920
that look like. We need We need an updated profile

763
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.159
from the two thousand and two, and at this point

764
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:26.679
I need to bring in Parabond or orthrom I'd love

765
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:31.239
to get CC Moore involved on this. You know, genetic

766
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:36.960
genealogy and DNA phenotyping system are what we need here.

767
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:42.840
And this is all about building that family tree from

768
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:47.719
the DNA and narrowing it down to suspects. And all

769
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:50.360
we have to do is place a suspect inside three

770
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.840
three eight one Greenway on the night of September twenty fifth,

771
00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:57.960
nineteen sixty six, and we can solve this thing. And

772
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:01.000
that is the that's the pro to call for solving

773
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:05.159
them now. And you know that's that's basically my thrust

774
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.119
at this point. I have a meeting at County next

775
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:10.119
week to go over all this. You know, Brian, I

776
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:12.519
wish I could say they had the fervor that I do.

777
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.760
They're dealing with day to day crimes all the time.

778
00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:19.159
Now I can't seem to infuse them with my passion.

779
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:21.920
Do you know if did they ever collect anyst saliva

780
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.000
or hair from doctor fred Lineger in the nineteen sixties.

781
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:30.280
Originally they stole his hat was at lunch Mett's back

782
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.480
when menmore hats, they sent it to the FBI. I

783
00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.840
would believe if there had been a match, they would

784
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.239
have they would have said so there would have been

785
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.559
some kind of movement on that I'm not aware that

786
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:47.119
there was. They had guys sitting next to him when

787
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:50.320
he was having lunch. Can you imagine this, Brian? They

788
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:55.159
shadowed this guy for years. Every time he gets a haircut,

789
00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:58.119
he's got to be nervous. If he's having a few

790
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:02.039
vodka martinis, there might be a guy one table over

791
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:05.599
that's just waiting for him to say something incriminating. And

792
00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:10.599
the thing that I was informed of, deputies would stop

793
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:13.280
lining her when he's coming out of a bar in

794
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.880
the seventies and they'd roused him. Hey there, Doc, how

795
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:18.360
you doing?

796
00:50:18.639 --> 00:50:21.960
You know, boy? You know sure is a shame what

797
00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:24.760
happened to that Brica family back in nineteen sixty six.

798
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:27.599
You know, how can anybody do that to that child?

799
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:31.239
He had to stand there and take it. I guess

800
00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:34.079
they walked right up to the line of harassing him

801
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:38.480
without crossing it. And I got to admit, if you

802
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:42.559
ask me what really got me obsessed with this taste,

803
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.760
it was the thought of lining her. Living with this

804
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:51.840
day after day, being nervous about a new client at

805
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.480
his business. You know, why is this client coming all

806
00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:58.159
the way over here to see me as a vet.

807
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:01.920
And why are these deputies roused me? Are they still

808
00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:05.000
following me? You know, because they followed them for at

809
00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:10.639
least three years. And Brian, I myself had serious thoughts

810
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:14.119
about going to that clinic with a cat. I didn't

811
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.079
do it. I'm kind of regretting. I needed to be

812
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:18.039
in a room with this guy, and I didn't do it,

813
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:22.199
because here's how it would have gone. Oh why are

814
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.559
you here? Oh you were highly recommended my regular vets.

815
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:27.840
I should take my cat to you. Oh what's your

816
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:31.800
cat's name? Ricca? That had been a short meeting. I

817
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:34.519
wish I'd done it, just to see this guy.

818
00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:37.679
So with those samples, they have the ability to potentially

819
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:40.079
do a one on one comparison if the I guess,

820
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:44.159
if the theory is that the accomplice was someone that

821
00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:47.320
would share many of the same genetic markers from the

822
00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:50.920
same family, and if they have, assuming that samples haven't

823
00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:54.320
degraded the saliva or just the hair samples that were

824
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.480
taken before, they could do that one to one comparison.

825
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.679
Now theoretically, but you've got to build it on a

826
00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.960
genealogical family tree. And I got to admit I am

827
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.440
not well versed in this. That's why we've got these

828
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:11.519
people like Ccmore. And you've got a list of suspects.

829
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:14.119
I saw a case recently where it narrowed down to

830
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:17.679
four brothers in a family and they eliminated three of

831
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:19.719
them and they dropped the fourth when he did it.

832
00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:24.119
So you're going to look at a you know, maybe

833
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:28.480
our top five suspects and see if the family tree

834
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:32.239
of the suspect is fleshed out, and where do we

835
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:35.519
get matches, where do we get intersections. I myself don't

836
00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:38.440
really know a lot about how it works. That's why

837
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:43.440
we have these experts. I'm astounded at how many of

838
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.480
these cases they're closing from the sixties and seventies and eighties.

839
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:52.000
It's really remarkable what they're doing. And that's the goal

840
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:56.840
with Brica. I've told County don't let money be an object.

841
00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.119
I was at a meeting in County with twenty people

842
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.880
a couple of years ago. I have put all my

843
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.519
proceeds from my book in a really nice dividend paying

844
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:08.760
account on Schwab and it's sitting there and I haven't

845
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:12.719
touched it. And I don't want them saying we can't

846
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.000
afford to do this testing, I'll put the money up.

847
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:18.400
I never I never got in this to make money.

848
00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:21.599
Just there's just all sorts of different angles to this case,

849
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.840
just the logistics of the crime. You know, I'm certain

850
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:29.239
they killed Jerry first. The guy looked like he could

851
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.119
have snapped your head off with his ring finger. And

852
00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:35.559
I saw him naked on a coroner's slab, dead three

853
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:40.280
days and he's still was physically imposing. And when I

854
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:43.119
saw those crime scene photos, I said the detective across

855
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:46.239
from me, look at the size of this guy. One

856
00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:49.360
guy with a carving knife is going to handle this really.

857
00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:53.119
And I just posted on my brick a group last

858
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:56.639
night one of the crime scene photos of the living

859
00:53:56.719 --> 00:54:01.159
room and I hadn't seen this detail. But there on

860
00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:06.639
the couch is one of Linda's dog leashes. And they

861
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:09.400
interviewed the babysitter and she said that leash was always

862
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:14.079
hanging on a cupboard door in the kitchen. She said,

863
00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:17.239
it bothers me that it's on the couch, and there

864
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.639
it was. I look at the photo. Is that what

865
00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:24.440
they trust Jerry up with? You know, where's that leash?

866
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.960
Can we get DNA off that leash? Because somebody moved it, So,

867
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:31.079
I mean, we could go on and on with this

868
00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:33.719
kind of stuff. Really, all the questions about it was

869
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:37.360
with Linda seeing more than one man. And I don't

870
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:40.360
think Linda Brickle was in this for the sex. If

871
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:42.840
she's threatening lining her and I'm going to go back

872
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:46.280
to something we talked earlier, Fred, I'm carrying your baby.

873
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:50.480
That's one one A is this? Fred? You promised me

874
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.519
you were going to leave your wife and we were

875
00:54:52.519 --> 00:54:55.239
going to move away and start our own veterinary clinic.

876
00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:59.800
And Linda's father, quite wealthy, had indicated he would bankroll that.

877
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:05.239
So what promises were made? Pillow talk between Fred and Linda.

878
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:10.039
Was this common for Leneger outside before Linda, because you

879
00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:12.039
mentioned a few times in the book. I believe that

880
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:15.440
Linda is kind of constantly or at least is reported

881
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:18.639
that Linda is constantly asking Lyneger about having this part

882
00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:22.159
time job. She's really interested in this. It doesn't sound

883
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.360
like he immediately hired her, and so he's if I

884
00:55:25.400 --> 00:55:27.840
play Devil's advocate, so he's like he's like very taken

885
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.480
with her initially. Why do you think the hesitation to

886
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:32.199
hire her when he could have her in such close

887
00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:34.039
proximity there ran.

888
00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:37.000
Let's go back to something I said at the top.

889
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.800
What did Linda do differently the last week of her life?

890
00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:45.840
Only one thing. She went to work at the glen

891
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:49.519
Way Animal Hospital. And let's get into a couple of

892
00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:53.079
wild theories here, all kind of rumors about the vets

893
00:55:53.119 --> 00:55:56.199
on the West Side with backdoor abortion Clinton, I hear

894
00:55:56.239 --> 00:56:00.360
it all the time. The other one is this Tanic

895
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:06.440
cults were quite prevalent in eastern Indiana and western Ohio.

896
00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.719
And that's what we're that's the area we're talking about

897
00:56:08.920 --> 00:56:11.079
right over there on the border of Indiana and Ohio

898
00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:16.119
where this crime happened, Satanic cults. I mentioned it in

899
00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:19.679
the book. I interviewed a woman. She said lining her

900
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:26.519
was supplying drugs to this group to anesthetize animals before

901
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:28.760
they were sacrificed. I mean, when I first heard the

902
00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:32.519
satanic cult thing, I laughed. I got an anonymous email

903
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:36.199
this guy said, absolutely these people killed the Brickas because

904
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.239
Linda was going to expose them. So in the three

905
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:43.960
days she worked at the glen Way Animal Hospital, what

906
00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:47.840
did she uncover? Is she pregnant or if she's not pregnant?

907
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:51.320
And the autopsy showed she wasn't did she uncover some

908
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:55.159
malfeasance and mistreatment of animals, because Linda Bricka would not

909
00:56:55.199 --> 00:56:58.719
have She would not have let that stand. If animals

910
00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:02.400
were being sacrificed in we know that much about her,

911
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:05.559
she'd have turned them in. So is this the reason

912
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:10.239
for the murders? And I'll tell you, Brian, I sat

913
00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:13.480
across from this woman. She was either the Meryl Streep

914
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:18.239
of actresses or she was reliving a horrific childhood experience.

915
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:20.639
And I have some of the names. Most of them

916
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:25.280
are deceased. These were some prominent West Side people involved

917
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:28.559
in this group allegedly. So how's that for another wrinkle?

918
00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:32.679
But again, what did Linda do differently? You want to

919
00:57:32.679 --> 00:57:34.800
look at that in any murder case. What did the

920
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:38.400
victim do that week or that day that was out

921
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:41.480
of character? What did the killer do that was out

922
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:45.480
of character? It seems unrelated, but they never have done

923
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.559
it before. Well, she'd never worked at a clinic before,

924
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:50.719
and suddenly she goes to work for a liner's clinic

925
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:57.000
and they're murdered. I have to think it's related. What

926
00:57:57.039 --> 00:57:59.480
was going on at these clinics Because if you read

927
00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.119
the book, A lot of these other vets were kind

928
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:05.480
of bent. They all seemed like they were a little shady.

929
00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:11.199
Lining her Keller, Raider Weedick. They all seemed like they

930
00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:16.480
were a little iffy. An interesting fact, the suicide rate

931
00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:20.159
among vetinarians is very high, one of the highest of

932
00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:23.599
any profession. And Lining her committed suicide. I just get

933
00:58:23.639 --> 00:58:26.480
back to her taking that job. He did not want

934
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:30.480
her there, I'm certain of that. What pressure was brought

935
00:58:30.480 --> 00:58:34.119
to bear? Was she going to just explode this guy's life?

936
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:38.320
Was she pregnant? This was not a rage, obsession crime.

937
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:40.719
I'm going out on a limb. This was not an

938
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:44.079
obsession with Linda Brica and a rage that she broke

939
00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:47.400
off the affair. I think this was fear. This was protection,

940
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:50.800
fear of scandal. If his affair is brought to light

941
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:53.960
on the West Side, it could ruin his business and

942
00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:54.880
his life.

943
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:59.840
Because looking at what they did differently right before them,

944
00:58:59.800 --> 00:59:03.320
Mark obviously lying her head, hired, Linda agreed to have

945
00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:05.760
her work. There was there anything else he did that

946
00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:07.639
was out of character that week?

947
00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:12.480
The call she made to his answering service on Thursday night,

948
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:16.599
I've listened to the interview, you know, the second interview

949
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:19.599
of Lininger. That changed the whole case. He apparently never

950
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:23.519
got that message about that call. He absolutely freaked during

951
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:27.239
the interview. His whole demeanor changed. Oh, I was not

952
00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:30.199
aware of that. Then she shows up at his guy's

953
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:33.000
only archery range on Friday, and according to the friend

954
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.000
with him, he was extremely uncomfortable. And then supposedly he

955
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:39.679
is seen in a car with her on Saturday, but

956
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:42.719
he trapped himself. When is the last time you saw

957
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:47.239
Linda Brica a Wednesday night at work? Well, Bud, you lied,

958
00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:50.519
You saw her Friday, and you saw her Saturday, so

959
00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:53.840
they caught him there. From my standpoint, in an interrogation,

960
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:56.320
a bad lie is almost as good as a confession.

961
00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:00.880
Circling back, did he do anything out of character? You know,

962
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.119
he seemed to be going on with his life. I

963
01:00:05.159 --> 01:00:08.199
can't say anything that really stands out other than hiring

964
01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:13.519
Linda Bricka and almost immediately he hires another couple to

965
01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:16.159
work there and to live in the clinic. And then

966
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:19.639
he offers Linda Wednesday only, you know, which I'm sure

967
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.119
she didn't like. But he's going to keep her on

968
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.159
for Wednesdays. But I don't think he wanted her there

969
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:28.599
I really don't. So what kind of pressure was she

970
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:31.119
bringing to bear on him? What kind of as the

971
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:35.480
FBI said, what kind of precipitating situational stress did she

972
01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:39.920
inflict on fred Lininger? Because I don't think Lininger was

973
01:00:39.960 --> 01:00:43.239
inflicting any stress on her. He just wanted to have

974
01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:46.000
his cake and eat it too, you know. He wanted

975
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.840
his cushy life to go on, and he wanted the

976
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:52.960
affair to go on. Typical man. But Linda wasn't having it.

977
01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:55.760
This is a this is a poor little rich girl

978
01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:59.920
that grew up in a mansion who obviously has hired

979
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.880
inspirations than living in this little house with Jerry Brica.

980
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:05.960
Well, one of the last questions we really want, the

981
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:08.280
last question I really have for you is did you

982
01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:10.480
get any pushback from anyone you spoke to while you

983
01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:13.679
were writing Summer's Almost Gone? You know? Was it was

984
01:01:13.719 --> 01:01:17.800
there anyone that was very vocal about you not doing this?

985
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.719
Absolutely too much to count? Why are you digging this up?

986
01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:26.320
You know, what's the point after all these years? And

987
01:01:26.519 --> 01:01:29.239
let me tell you I have been I got a

988
01:01:29.280 --> 01:01:35.679
mild death threat, specifically about what I said about Glenn Ryle,

989
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:39.039
the Kitty Show host because everybody grew up with Glenn Ryle,

990
01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:41.920
and they're thinking, oh, what a great guy, what a

991
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:44.360
great kitty show host guy, how dare you say this

992
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:47.920
about him? And all I said was he was interviewed

993
01:01:48.320 --> 01:01:53.920
by investigators, he was closely linked with the prime suspect,

994
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:59.119
and the police felt that he would not cooperate. That's

995
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:03.199
all I said. But people, how dare you trash Glen Ryle?

996
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.840
And I did a lot of research into this guy.

997
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:10.599
Oh my, I've got Glenn Ryle stories. This guy was

998
01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:15.559
not a beloved kiddy show host, talk about bent talk

999
01:02:15.599 --> 01:02:18.840
about a guy who was a player out there with women,

1000
01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:22.880
a married man, and he and Lininger were buddies. Lyinger

1001
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:26.760
appeared on the skip of Ryle Show with animals. They

1002
01:02:26.760 --> 01:02:30.119
have footage of him on there with Glenn Ryle, and

1003
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:33.039
Glenn Ryle was a scary looking guy. He could have

1004
01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:34.079
handled Jerry Bricker.

1005
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:34.639
No.

1006
01:02:34.760 --> 01:02:37.639
People didn't like the Glenn Ryle stuff at all. And

1007
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:40.079
other people were like, why are you digging this up?

1008
01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:43.199
And I've had people say why are you trashing Fred Liner?

1009
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:46.840
And I'm saying, I'm just going what's in the file

1010
01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:53.480
and extrapolating the evidence and speculating about his involvement. I

1011
01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:55.639
was very clear in the disclaimers at the beginning of

1012
01:02:55.679 --> 01:02:58.039
the book. You know these are a lot of these

1013
01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:04.559
are my subjective opinions. Do not represent an accusation against

1014
01:03:04.599 --> 01:03:07.920
any person, living or dead. I think most people have

1015
01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:12.159
been very positive about the book, because all everybody knew

1016
01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:14.760
about this case until I wrote this book was the rumors,

1017
01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:20.159
and suddenly here's all the rest of it. And the

1018
01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:23.239
vast majority of people really like this book. I've got

1019
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:27.840
good reviews. I would encourage listeners here to buy it

1020
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:31.679
on Amazon or go to my website www dot JT.

1021
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:36.159
Townsend dot com. Buy the hardcover. Any book that goes

1022
01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:39.159
out of here is signed by me. I think it's

1023
01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:42.039
a hell of a read. I know some people are going,

1024
01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:44.360
why did you put the strangler in? Why did you

1025
01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:47.519
mention Richard Speck. I even got Ted Bundy in here

1026
01:03:48.239 --> 01:03:51.000
in this book, and I'm fascinated by Ted Bundy.

1027
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:53.559
I was wondering if you could talk about the title

1028
01:03:53.599 --> 01:03:54.960
of the book. Was one of the things that I

1029
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:57.480
first drew me to this book. I didn't know anything

1030
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:00.519
about the Brickway case before reading your book. I remember

1031
01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:02.559
it popped up as a recommendation, and I thought some

1032
01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:05.800
are some almost gone. That's a really beautiful poetic title

1033
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:08.719
for a true crime book. And there are these passages

1034
01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:11.639
like I'm looking at one right now from page one

1035
01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:15.159
twenty one of the book, where you write, clouds began

1036
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:19.039
to move in that evening as autumn stretched amid yawning shadows,

1037
01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:21.400
the hot, sticky life of summer was waning, and soon

1038
01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:24.960
bursting leaves would curw into rich reds and golds gathered

1039
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:28.639
for bonfires, and signaling crisp and poignant beginnings. Is very

1040
01:04:28.679 --> 01:04:31.559
beautifully written, and I was wondering it seemed like you

1041
01:04:31.599 --> 01:04:34.199
were investing a lot of symbolic value in this, beyond

1042
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:35.880
all of the kind of getting into the weeds like

1043
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:38.039
we have talking about these details. It had a larger

1044
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.559
symbolic value. And I'm curious about what does the brick

1045
01:04:40.639 --> 01:04:42.239
a case mean to you on that kind of like

1046
01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:44.000
larger scale. And how did you come up with the.

1047
01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:47.079
Title, Well, that's the titles of a Doors song. I'm

1048
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:48.960
a big fan of the Doors. Back in the day,

1049
01:04:49.239 --> 01:04:51.639
the murders happened right on the cusp of bottomn The

1050
01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:54.639
life of Spring is gone, The life of Summer's gone,

1051
01:04:54.719 --> 01:04:59.079
and suddenly we're getting into a beautiful, poignant season where

1052
01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:03.320
things are starting to die. Winter coming up, just a transition,

1053
01:05:04.119 --> 01:05:08.039
you know, Summer's over, it's almost gone. I think you

1054
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:10.440
captured as well as I did. It's the end of

1055
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:14.719
It's the end of something good. And here comes the pain,

1056
01:05:15.280 --> 01:05:21.519
Here comes the sorrow, the grief, you know. The murders. Coincidentally,

1057
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:27.440
two weeks after the Bricks were murdered, the Cincinnati Strangler,

1058
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:32.920
as if throwing down the gauntlet, murdered Alice Hakhausler on

1059
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:37.440
her driveway in the Clifton Gaslight District. This was the

1060
01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.760
seminal crime of the Strangler. This woman was the wife

1061
01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:44.159
of a chief surgeon, a good samaritan. The Clifton Gaslight

1062
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:49.599
district shade trees, big Victorian houses, Nothing bad happens there.

1063
01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:53.480
And this woman was murdered on her own driveway, steps

1064
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:56.280
from her back door, with her husband and seven children inside.

1065
01:05:56.719 --> 01:06:01.360
The juxtaposition of Bricca and then how Houser. Two weeks later,

1066
01:06:02.239 --> 01:06:06.400
the Fertilizer hit the fan largest law enforcement mobilization. They

1067
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:10.719
moved Halloween to the daytime, so October of sixty six

1068
01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:15.760
is the key month. The Brick investigations picking up steam.

1069
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:20.440
The Strangler goes, oh yeah, brick and killer. How about this,

1070
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:25.360
I'm going to take a popular socialite who was active

1071
01:06:25.400 --> 01:06:27.239
in the arts and charities. I'm going to kill her

1072
01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:32.360
on her own driveway. Take that. October was the month

1073
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:37.639
when everybody was just fearful. I was thinking I was

1074
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:39.679
going to trick or treat. I was in seventh grade,

1075
01:06:40.239 --> 01:06:42.400
and I'm like, is that cool? It will be a

1076
01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:44.880
seventh grader in trick or treat? And then they said

1077
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:48.199
it's in the daytime. Oh no, no, I'm not doing it.

1078
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:51.559
I watched those kids walking around in the daytime. What

1079
01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:54.519
an overreach, Brian like the Strangler would kill a child

1080
01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:59.079
trigger treating. Its absurd. But that's indicative of what was

1081
01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:02.039
going on in the city in October of sixty six.

1082
01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:06.599
In the fall of sixty six was summer almost gone.

1083
01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:09.880
And so it's also about you as well. You were

1084
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:11.960
on that cusp of teenage years and this is about

1085
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:13.119
a shift in your life too.

1086
01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:16.840
Yeah, it was a period of transition for me, as

1087
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:20.480
is junior high for any elementary school kid. Yeah, it

1088
01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:23.760
was quite a transition. And look what was going on

1089
01:07:24.079 --> 01:07:29.159
the Strangler and Brica, so it is. It is a

1090
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:32.199
book about me to some extent. How I've carried this

1091
01:07:32.280 --> 01:07:35.679
with me all through the years. This is my case,

1092
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:39.079
just like you have a case, Brian, Courtney's got a

1093
01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:42.239
case too that goes bumping your head in the night.

1094
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:48.320
And thank God for the armchair detectives like you, like Courtney,

1095
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:51.639
like me, that we keep these cases alive long after

1096
01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:55.559
the jurisdictions dropped it, you know, And that's why podcasts

1097
01:07:55.559 --> 01:07:59.079
are so popular. Hey, we can be the detective. You know.

1098
01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:01.800
I have no law forced and I'll put my detective

1099
01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:03.199
chops up against anybody.

1100
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:07.039
Thank you both so much for joining me today. It

1101
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:10.519
has been a pleasure speaking with you. And thank you

1102
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:13.599
guys so much for listening as we shed new light

1103
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:18.199
on one of Cincinnati's most haunting unsolved cases. The Brica

1104
01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:22.359
family murders. A young couple and their little girl brutally

1105
01:08:22.439 --> 01:08:25.159
murdered in their own home in nineteen sixty six, has

1106
01:08:25.239 --> 01:08:29.399
left behind a mystery that has endured for nearly six decades.

1107
01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:33.600
But hopefully soon that case may not be as cold

1108
01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:37.159
as we once believed. There a questions raised by Jat's

1109
01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:41.079
meticulous research that he has poured into his book Summer's

1110
01:08:41.119 --> 01:08:45.760
Almost Gone. One thing is clear, someone out there knows

1111
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:49.560
the truth. If you have any information about the Brica case,

1112
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:53.920
even something you think might be insignificant, contact the Cincinnati

1113
01:08:53.920 --> 01:08:56.600
Police Department or reach out to the Cold Case Unit.

1114
01:08:57.279 --> 01:09:02.039
After all this time, justice for the Brickas is long overdue.

1115
01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:05.479
And don't forget to check out the episode description for

1116
01:09:06.000 --> 01:09:09.840
links to JT's book where you can find Summer's Almost Gone.

1117
01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.119
I'll put the links for Amazon and his website in

1118
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:17.720
the description, although I suggest getting it from JT's website

1119
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:21.840
because he'll sign it for you, as well as links

1120
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:26.439
for Brian's book Murder on Campus. There will also be

1121
01:09:26.520 --> 01:09:29.279
a link to the episode that I did with Brian

1122
01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:32.760
and his brother Cameron all about their book in the

1123
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:37.560
Murder of Virginia olsen As. Always leave me a review

1124
01:09:37.840 --> 01:09:40.640
and share the episode. You never know who might be

1125
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:45.479
listening or what they may know. But until next time,

1126
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:49.800
I hope you have a wonderful week and I'll see

1127
01:09:49.840 --> 01:09:52.159
you in the next chapter of the Book of the Dead.

1128
01:09:53.720 --> 01:09:58.159
And if you've made it this far, here is a

1129
01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:02.680
sneak peek for next week's episode. Next time on the

1130
01:10:02.680 --> 01:10:05.279
Book of the Dead, we head to Albany, New York,

1131
01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:09.319
where nineteen year old Suzanne Lyle vanished without a trace

1132
01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:12.520
after finishing her shift at a campus area computer store.

1133
01:10:13.439 --> 01:10:17.399
A bright college sophomore with a passion for technology, Suzanne

1134
01:10:17.439 --> 01:10:21.479
was last seen stepping off a CDTA bus just a

1135
01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:24.960
short walk from her dorm at Sunny Albany. She never

1136
01:10:25.159 --> 01:10:28.000
made it back. In the days and years that followed,

1137
01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:33.640
few clues would emerge. A strange atm withdrawal, a secretive boyfriend,

1138
01:10:34.359 --> 01:10:37.520
and a family leapt with a series of questions but

1139
01:10:37.720 --> 01:10:41.600
very few answers. Her mother, Mary once said, you don't

1140
01:10:41.640 --> 01:10:45.319
stop being a parent when your child disappears. You become

1141
01:10:45.319 --> 01:10:50.199
an investigator, an advocate, and sometimes the only one still

1142
01:10:50.239 --> 01:10:55.199
searching what happened to Suzanne Lyle, who was watching her

1143
01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:58.920
and who might be protecting the truth? Join me as

1144
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:02.800
I unravel the case about the young woman that Albany

1145
01:11:02.880 --> 01:11:08.680
has refused to forget. Bye, guys, Another page closed, But

1146
01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:12.880
the story isn't over for the families left behind. The

1147
01:11:12.920 --> 01:11:17.000
pain doesn't end when the headline's fade, And for the victims,

1148
01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:21.359
we owe them more than silence for our on solved cases.

1149
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:24.840
If you have any information, please reach out to local

1150
01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:28.079
authorities or visit our show notes for links and resources.

1151
01:11:29.279 --> 01:11:34.439
Someone out there knows something, Maybe it's you. Thank you

1152
01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:37.159
for listening to the Book of the Dead. If this

1153
01:11:37.239 --> 01:11:40.159
story moved or spoke to you in some way, talk

1154
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:45.439
about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until next time.

1155
01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:51.079
I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant,

1156
01:11:51.800 --> 01:11:55.520
and remember the dead may be gone, but their stories

1157
01:11:55.560 --> 01:11:56.960
will not be forgotten.

1158
01:12:05.119 --> 01:12:07.560
Many areas in
Brian Santana Profile Photo
Brian Santana

Brian Santana is a college English professor and writer. After graduating from UNC-Asheville in 2003 with a degree in Drama, he earned a M.A. in English at North Carolina State University and a PhD from The George Washington University. He currently resides in West Virginia with his wife and children.

JT Townsend Profile Photo
JT Townsend

Author

J. T. Townsend is a freelance writer, armchair detective, and lifelong resident of Cincinnati. He is the author of the 2009 regional best-seller Queen City Gothic, and 2014’s Queen City Notorious, and his work has appeared in the Cincinnati
Enquirer, Cincinnati Magazine, Word Magazine, Crime Traveler, and Clews. He has presented over 300 programs in the Cincinnati area as part of his True Crime Lecture Series, including Jack the Ripper, Lizzie Borden, and the Lindbergh
Kidnapping. He teaches his Cincinnati True Crime Detective class for the University of Cincinnati Communiversity division.
In 2018, he was featured on WCPO News, 700WLW Radio, and the Cincinnati Enquirer while promoting his new book Summer’s Almost Gone, a regional bestseller! In 2020, he appeared on WLWT News with Sheree Paolello.