July 22, 2025

Chapter 110: A Hidden Crisis-American Infanticide & The Emilie Weaver Case with Clara S. Lewis

Chapter 110: A Hidden Crisis-American Infanticide & The Emilie Weaver Case with Clara S. Lewis
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Interviews

Today I sat down with Clara S. Lewis, author of American Infanticide: Sexism, Science, and the Politics of Sympathy, to examine the deeply unsettling and complex case of Emilie Weaver, a college student convicted of killing her newborn in 2015. Clara walked me through how the legal system, media, and public perception often fail to grasp the complex realities behind neonaticide and infanticide in America. From the influence of a long history of stigmatizing young mothers that shape how we respond to these tragedies, the systemic forces that leave young women isolated and desperate, we discussed why these cases are far more common and more misunderstood than many realize. This is a conversation about stigma, silence, and the consequences of a justice system ill-equipped to reckon with maternal trauma.

Get American Infanticide: Sexism, Science, and the Politics of Sympathy here

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Learn more about Clara by checking out her Guest Bio at www.botdpod.com

WEBVTT

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Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.

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In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay

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the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,

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waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This

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is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast

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where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,

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re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath

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the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and

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every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,

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one step closer to justice. Brought to you by Darkast

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Network Indeed Podcasts with the Twist. Hello, Hello, Welcome to

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the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. Today

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we are diving into a topic that is as haunting

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as it is overlooked in fanticide. While often treated as

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a taboo subject or an anomaly, my guest Clara Lewis,

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argues that this phenomenon is deeply embedded in the fabric

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of US history, law, and culture. Clara is a scholar, researcher,

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and the author of American and Fanticide, Sexism, Science, and

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the Politics of Sympathy As well as Tough on Hate,

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the cultural politics of hate crimes, and she has contributed

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to leading journals. Now a faculty member at Dartmouth Institute

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for Writing and Rhetoric, Clara's latest book challenges readers to

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take a hard look at a subject that most would

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rather ignore, and asks us to reconsider everything we think

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we know about who commits in Fantaside, why it happens,

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and how society responds to it with sympathy or malice. Clara,

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thank you so much for joining me today. I'm very

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excited to have you.

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Thanks so much for having me, Courtney, great to be here.

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So to start, can you tell me a little bit

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about yourself. Tell us a bit about your background and

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what led you to focus on in Fantaside as a

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subject of your research.

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Oh goodness, thank you for the question. I'm a sociologist

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and historian by training, and I'm also now a mom

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of two, which was not actually the case when I

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started this project. I had my second baby while I

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was working on the final edits for this book. I

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became interested in this topic after graduate school. I was

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putting together a new syllabus for a class that would

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be on crimeate control in the United States, and I

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was reading a bunch of books for that class, and

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I happened upon a book by the amazing historian Jeffrey

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Adler that looks at homicide in Chicago in the eighteen

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hundreds late eighteen hundreds, and he has an entire chapter

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dedicated to infant homicide in the city. And I was

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completely taken aback and stunned by the information that he

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shared in that work. Basically, he presents evidence on the

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sheer frequency or commonplace nature of infant homicide in that

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time period, to the point where Chicagoans would not have

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been surprised to encounter the corpse of a dead baby

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in the street, in a rubbish pile, in any waterway.

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And I was just completely taken aback by that description

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of American women's history, and to find out, then digging

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into the deeper and even longer history, just that infant

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homicide and fanticide has been practiced in every known society

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and civilization going back to ancient history through pre modern

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and I had not learned about that. In my graduate program,

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I have a PhD in American Studies. I had been

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a teaching assistant for classes on US women's history and

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done a lot of work on sort of history of

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crime and control in the US previously. So to come

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to learn that this is actually the most commonly practiced

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form of homicide by American women over the nation's entire history,

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and to discover that after I'd already finished all of

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my graduate work was really really surprising to me, and

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it made me immediately feel interested in doing more research

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in that area. So that's the origin of the project.

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At first.

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That's so interesting because I think a lot of people

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assume that infant homicide is very rare, it's like a

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modern phenomenon, which obviously is not the case. So can

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you explain kind of how it occurred throughout history, Like

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why has it gone so underreported? People don't talk about it.

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Yeah, that's a really great question for so many different reasons,

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and in some ways it ties in with how these cases,

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contemporary cases are misrepresented. There's often this undercurrent that this

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is like this modern or contemporary phenomenon, that our morals

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have been corrupted in some way and that that's the

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result here, or that we're seeing more premarital sex or

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teen sex or something along those lines, and it's attributed

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to this sort of contemporary moral order, But that really

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couldn't be further from the truth if we go all

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the way back to looking at like ancient Greek and

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Roman societies. If in homicide was actually written into law,

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it was legal, and it was the prerogative of the

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male head of household to decide which babies born under

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his control would live or die, and that was explicitly

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allowed in law and practiced widely. And in those cases

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it would be practiced for any number of different kinds

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of reasons, and that practice carried forward early Christian and

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Jewish societies, and they were sort of minority societies. Elites

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in those cultures were sort of the first to issue

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a religious prohibition against infant homicide and abortion, which were

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sort of concluded in the same category. But you see,

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you have this religious elite rhetoric and condemnation. But if

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you actually get into the weeds with the demographics, you

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see that even in these Western communities, infanhomicide was still

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very widely practiced and for any number of different kinds

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of reasons. Some of it was about poverty and survival

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and resources, and in other situations it was more about

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prerogative preferring a particular sex over another, wanting a certain

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number of children and not more than that. So it

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could happen for all of these different reasons through this

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much longer history, and it's a really important part of

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Western history that has not been examined carefully until only

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very recently, even in the last i would say, just

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two years, we're seeing some of the first bigger studies

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come forward to public location.

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Why do you think that is that it was so

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widely ignored for so long, Like it was it just

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a case of, you know, people kind of just having

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their head in the sand, or is it just that

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they really didn't understand that things like postpartum psychosis and

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economic instability, issues with reproductive care, Like was it an

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issue with them ignoring those issues or was it more

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of an issue of this is happening, but we don't

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want to talk about it because it's so terrible in

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her effect?

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Okay, I think there's a few different kind of factors

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there in terms of the underreporting or the understudied nature.

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And if we look back further, like why did we

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know so much about let's say, femicide in Eastern nations

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like India and China. This is widely studied by demographic

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historians in the West. They developed particular kinds of methods

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and techniques that worked to to sort of reveal those

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kinds of patterns, but they never applied those same research

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techniques to more Western context until extremely recently. The main

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historian who's done that work, who's phenomenal, Gregory Hanlin. He's

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distinguished faculty up at dell Housie in Halifax, Canada, And

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his argument is that basically this comes from a sense

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of Western superiority, this idea that parents in the West

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behave differently than parents everywhere else on the planet, and

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that that was just this huge blind spot, and that

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that sort of assumption or that particular kind of bias

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really shaped the historical literature for such a long time.

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And then I think, if you're just thinking about the

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American context, that translates maybe even into the way we

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prefer to tell our national stories, and to what extent

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does American exceptionalism control that narrative. Are we willing to

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look at certain darker chapters or not, Are we willing

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to consider them as being central or not? And so

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I think that that also is a factor in these

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cases as well.

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Definitely, I think that makes a lot of sense because

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I mean, you look at at least in American history classes,

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there's a lot of rewriting of history, and there's a

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lot of things that aren't talked about, and clearly this

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is one of them. And I think, at least for

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me more recently, you hear about it more and more,

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and there's automatically this narrative that the mothers are inherently

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evil from the get go. And it's interesting to me

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because I mean, I do it myself. I'm guilty of

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about myself like this mother is terrible, she's evil, she

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killed her child, and how could anyone do that? But

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there's all these extenuating factors, and I think your book

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really makes people kind of think of those extenuating factors,

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because there are issues of women not being able to

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handle the weight of motherhood if they're going through pregnancy

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and labor and the prospect of motherhood alone, which I

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think a lot of people don't talk about.

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Yes, I'm so glad that you picked up on that

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and are kind of like drawing our attention to that

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aspect of what the book reveals. I think that with

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young women today in these contemporary cases, the media representation

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does depict them as monster moms. They're really sort of

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stripped of any kind of individual identity or individual life circumstance.

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These cases are not all the same. There is an

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individual in a particular community that's going through something like this,

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and so it ends up looking on tabloid headlines like

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monstrosity or evil. If you actually sit down and have

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a more in depth conversation with the young woman who's

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gone through this experience, especially the case that I've foreground

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in the book, Emily Weaver's case, I really feel her

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biggest failing and the one that she acknowledges fully is

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failing to ask for help. And that's very different than

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having a criminal mindset, a murderous mindset, feeling paralyzed, feeling alone,

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and also not having a great understanding of what's actually

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happening in your own body. You know, those things to

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me don't translate to evil or malice.

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I agree, and I think even just any woman on

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the street going through pregnancy or wanting to be pregnant,

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wanting to be a mom, like, there's still you're never

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really prepared. I mean, there's still that innate fear, and

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I think a lot of the issue lies with how

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someone handles that fear, whether they're internalizing it or asking

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for help, and whether there's help available. Speaking of Emily's case,

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Emily Weber's case is obviously deeply troubling. It's really complex,

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and I know that there's at least in my area

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that it wasn't widely publicized in my area in New Jersey.

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So for those that really don't know about it, could

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you kind of walk us through the key details of

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the case. Who Emily was, what were the circumstances, and

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what happened with her?

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Okay, So I met Emily maybe a year and a

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half hour after her daughter, Addison died tragically. And I

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just want to start by naming the victim in this case,

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Addison Grace Weaver. Emily gave her her name. Emily was

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at her funeral, and you know, she's been dead now

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for ten years.

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She would be ten.

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Years old, if you know, for this conversation, if this

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tragedy hadn't occurred. So in twenty fifteen, Emily was just

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starting out her sophomore year in college in Ohio, small

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college near her home, with friends in her sorority house,

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and she had kind of a rough first year relationship.

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Things didn't go that great on again, off again.

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So she has this sort of ex boyfriend in her

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life who is not supportive of her in any way,

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and she starts sort of having some pregnancy concerns later

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in the year. I would say Emily's pregnancy was completely

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unperceived originally, and it wasn't until much later in the

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pregnancy that she started to have certain concerns. The only

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person that she sort of felt safe confiding and about

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those concerns was the abusive ex boyfriend, who is incredibly

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unsupportive of basically just swearing her to secrecy, saying these

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things aren't happening. So at this point she starts sort

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of repeating this this inner monologue of like, this isn't

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happening to me, this is going to go away.

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Emily was, you know.

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A successful student athlete, all of these things in high

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school and college. She's busy in her sorority life, and

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you know, she's like an attractive and popular friend. People

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lean on her. She's very to someone who the other

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people can go to. In the spring, in April, much

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to her surprise, she finds herself going into labor. In

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her sorority house. The week before there was a horrible

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stomach flu going through the house, and Emily, when those

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early signs of labor kicked in, she just assumed she

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was experiencing the same stomach flu, which is actually really

231
00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.320
common in this particular kind of case, these new NATA

232
00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:54.720
side cases, which are just infant homicides that occur immediately

233
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.120
at birth, within the first twenty four hours of life.

234
00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.720
It's very common the young women in these situations do

235
00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.759
not know what is happening in their body and will

236
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.759
retreat to her bathroom and assume that something else is

237
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:09.039
going on in this way. And we should come back

238
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:10.480
to this because that's a moment where a lot of

239
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:13.559
intervention happens. Other young women will be taken to a

240
00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:17.279
hospital in that circumstance and deliver successfully and end up

241
00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:20.120
raising their babies really successfully. But for Emily, she was

242
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.279
alone in the bathroom. And we all, you know, if

243
00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.039
you've been through childbirth or have had friends who've gone

244
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.480
through it, you know and have gotten their sort of stories.

245
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.120
It's something that sort of starts out kind of okay

246
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.240
for a long period of time, and then heavy labor

247
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.360
sets in, and it's suddenly very much not okay anymore.

248
00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:42.720
What heavy labor set in, Emily lost consciousness. She ripped

249
00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:46.279
the toilet's set off. Basically, Addison ends up being born

250
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.519
directly into the toilet bowl, which is again pretty common

251
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:53.960
in these cases. Emily is still struggling to deliver the placenta.

252
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:59.679
She's bleeding heavily, she has severe vaginal lacerations, she's severely injured.

253
00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:03.320
She's in and out of consciousness, and she's alone with

254
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:08.080
both the newborn baby and the placenta is still attached,

255
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:12.399
and she's in a state of complete panic, terror, complete disassociation,

256
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.440
like hovering outside of her body, no ability to form

257
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.720
any kind of conscious intention or motivation in that mental state,

258
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.279
like we know this, And her first impulse was just, Okay,

259
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.039
I've endured some kind of miscarriage. I just have to

260
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:29.159
clean this up and get going with my day. So

261
00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.480
she in this panic state. It's early in the morning.

262
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.240
The other sorority sisters are still sleeping, like they're starting

263
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:35.600
to wake up and come down for the day.

264
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:37.799
She gets a garbage bag.

265
00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:40.759
She kind of wraps everything that's in the bathroom, like

266
00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:44.399
her bloody clothing, the paper towels, all these different things,

267
00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.480
and the baby ends up and the placenta end up

268
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.159
in the garbage bag with all of these other items,

269
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.559
and then she just sort of ties the bag and

270
00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:55.639
rested against the side of the house and doesn't know

271
00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:58.519
what to do with herself. She goes back into the house.

272
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.720
She's just resting on the couch, tried to restore herself,

273
00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.080
and her plan is just to like carry on, you know.

274
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:06.519
Later in the day, she's trying to do homework for

275
00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.279
a class that she's about to go to. She has

276
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.600
like a report to deliver, a talk to give, and

277
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:12.759
she's just trying to carry on as best as she can.

278
00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:15.799
And in her mind, she's just telling herself she's endured

279
00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:17.519
a miscarriage and this must be what it's like.

280
00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:18.600
If she'd had.

281
00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.799
Any thought to conceal the crime intentionally, all she would

282
00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.840
have had to do is walk twenty feet down the

283
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.559
driveway put the garbage bag in the cans that were

284
00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:32.279
at the curb to be picked up that morning. But

285
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:34.200
she did not have that kind of intention or that

286
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:37.679
kind of criminality in her mindset whatsoever. I think part

287
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.600
of her, in the back of her mind was thinking,

288
00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:42.320
maybe you know, at that point in time, she was

289
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:45.799
still depersonalizing Addison. So at that point in time, Addison

290
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.759
wasn't a baby or a person to her. Addison wasn't it.

291
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.679
But I think even in that state, she still thought

292
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.879
maybe I should bury maybe I should try to bury

293
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:55.519
bury it.

294
00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:00.519
Reading about her case, it's very clear that she was

295
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:05.720
almost like disassociating from herself, which I see why people

296
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:09.759
want to villainize that, because it's you know, this isn't

297
00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:12.440
my baby. It's in it, it's a thing, it's not real,

298
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:16.400
it's not really happening. And I think that automatically makes

299
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.559
the public go, you're evil because you don't care, you

300
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.160
don't have that maternal instinct. And I don't think that

301
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.680
was the case with Emily, because it's not that she

302
00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.759
didn't have a maternal instinct. I think, at least from

303
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.400
the way that you described in her book, and like

304
00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.519
what I've read about the case, it very much at

305
00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.720
least is clear to me that she was just so

306
00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.160
very convinced she wasn't pregnant. It wasn't happening to her,

307
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.599
and I don't think she shouldn't. That doesn't make her evil,

308
00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.079
It makes her very scared.

309
00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:51.240
I mean, Emily experience is a huge amount of grief

310
00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.359
and remorse, as does her family, And I should say

311
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.200
that I think the thing that gets really overlooked in

312
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.799
these cases is the extent to which families like deeply

313
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.200
grieve these losses of the grandchild and the child, and

314
00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.319
that Emily had a moment of realization later. So in

315
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.799
the moment of the tragedy itself, she's in a dissociative state,

316
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.480
she's panicked, she's extremely medically injured, and what can we

317
00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:18.599
ask if someone in that state, I really like, I

318
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.880
come back to that question, and I think Emily wishes

319
00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.839
deeply that she had just screamed for help and that

320
00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.279
someone could have rushed in and taken her to the hospital.

321
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.319
But she didn't realize what had really happened, in what

322
00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:34.680
she'd really lost until much later in the summer.

323
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.279
So later in the summer, after.

324
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.519
The autopsy, after all the forensic reporting had been conducted,

325
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.519
Addison's corpse was returned to Emily and her family and

326
00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.759
they had an open casket funeral for Addison, and Emily

327
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.759
picked out her little outfit for that funeral, and she

328
00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.400
also named Addison at that time and that's when she

329
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.480
had that sort of intense moment of realization of what

330
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.119
she had acted done and what she had actually lost,

331
00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.599
and it was devastating, and she had a complete panic

332
00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:09.039
attack in the parking lot at Babies r Us when

333
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:10.160
she picked out the outfit.

334
00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:12.400
And in a way, I think.

335
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.240
Her life is defined from that moment forward of realization

336
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.839
to this day, Emily dedicates herself to Addison's memory. Her

337
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:23.240
mother attends to the gravesite extremely lovingly, like this is

338
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.079
a huge topic of conversation for them in terms of

339
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.039
their relationship too. And I think that public image of

340
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:32.519
just oh, here's someone who's so callous, who lacks this

341
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:37.480
innate maternal instinct is a huge mismatch for the psychological

342
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:41.119
and medical reality of what someone like Emily actually endures

343
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.559
in what they actually go through. You know, I think

344
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:46.880
there's a certain assumption about the maternal instinct and how

345
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.240
it operates that actually isn't that accurate for a lot

346
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:52.680
of women, and that that can be kind of painful

347
00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.000
for some new moms. Is this sort of assumption that

348
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:58.319
the baby arrives and the bonding is instantaneous that's not

349
00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:02.680
actually biologically accurate. Yes, bonding begins right at birth, but

350
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.440
it actually deepens and develops over the next few days

351
00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.319
and weeks. That's natural and innate. And so the idea

352
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:11.680
that like, oh, you've failed to have a maternal instinct

353
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.160
because that the second of delivery you aren't acting in

354
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.640
this completely altruistic manner, that's a really it's almost a

355
00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.799
cruel expectation to put on new moms that they would

356
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.720
have that ability, or that they would have that emotional

357
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:26.839
experience in that way.

358
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:31.680
Now, I agree, and because it's the experience is going

359
00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.920
to be different for every mother, regardless of whether or

360
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.160
not it was a planned pregnancy. And when you add

361
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:40.119
in all of these extenuating factors, a traumatic birth, a

362
00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:46.519
traumatic labor, it's hard to create a bond with what

363
00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.400
is essentially a stranger right off the bat. It's very difficult.

364
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.480
In terms of the investigation into Addison's death, though, what

365
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.319
stood out to you about how it was handled there?

366
00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.720
Obviously you speak about it in your book, particularly in

367
00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.240
comparison to other cases that she mentioned in the book.

368
00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:06.079
You know, what was your perception of that?

369
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:08.480
Yeah, I mean, this is one of the things I

370
00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:11.799
would really love to raise awareness about and see changed

371
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.960
moving forward. Emily was interrogated before she received any medical care,

372
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.720
just twenty hours after the birth itself. Even less than that, actually, sorry,

373
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:26.559
So she delivered Addison in the morning and then she's

374
00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.119
she voluntarily goes into the campus police station for her

375
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:35.240
first interrogation that night, and she's still in this very

376
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.519
dissociative state. She's still just trying to carry on as

377
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:41.039
best as she can. She's still terrified to have any

378
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.200
conversation with her mother, so she hasn't talked to her mom,

379
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:47.480
she hasn't received any medical care, she's just had maybe

380
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.039
one meal, and she finds herself alone at ten o'clock

381
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:54.079
at night in the campus police station with a twenty

382
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:56.799
year veteran from the force who had actually done an

383
00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.039
interrogation on a nearly identical NEONATA side case that occurred

384
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:04.759
on the same university campus twelve years prior. So he's

385
00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:08.359
very experienced with this kind of interrogation. And at that

386
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.079
point in time, Emily still thinks she's just getting over

387
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.400
a miscarriage and it's a miscommunication, and she's she's most

388
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.839
concerned in that time with just getting ready for this

389
00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:20.200
presentation in her women's history class, like that's her biggest concern.

390
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.799
So she voluntarily gives over her cell phone and she

391
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.319
sits for this interrogation that lasts from ten o'clock at

392
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:29.599
night till I believe three or three thirty that morning.

393
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.039
Over the course of that interrogation, she's basically giving these

394
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:38.480
confessions that are taking on more and more culpability. Then

395
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.960
really makes sense and it would be advisable at any moment,

396
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.000
And I think the main thing that should have been

397
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.440
changed there is that confessions in these cases are forthcoming.

398
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:50.720
Women experience a huge amount of grief and remorse as

399
00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:55.519
soon as they realize what's really happened, and so I

400
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.880
really think the more humane tactic would be to allow

401
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:02.359
for medical care to begin, allow for a time where

402
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.720
Emily was also interrogated again after she had medical care

403
00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.680
and surgery a second time, and she was still under

404
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:11.440
all of those drugs and sedatives from the surgery she

405
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.759
had to receive, and so both of those interrogations strike

406
00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.200
me as being inhumane and unnecessary in terms of being

407
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.680
able to secure a confession from her. So receiving medical

408
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:23.839
care and ideally having time to talk to a grief

409
00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.640
counselor as well, I think would lead to still an

410
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.960
ability to achieve a confession, but to get actually a

411
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:35.000
much more accurate understanding of what occurred. That those two

412
00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.839
things are really really important.

413
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:42.200
Absolutely, because I know that obviously they have the initial interrogation,

414
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:46.920
and she's obviously in shock. She's gone through this trauma.

415
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.960
She's actively still bleeding everywhere heavily because of all the

416
00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.440
damage that was done. So she's not she'sn't speaking as

417
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.240
probably coherently as she could be. And then she's being

418
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.680
interrogated directly after surgery when she's under the influence of

419
00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:07.680
all these pain medications. So her testimony to police has

420
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.839
changed multiple times, and I'm almost curious as to how

421
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.759
they could have navigated that accurately, because she gave two

422
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.559
different testimonies. She said, first it was you know, she

423
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:20.680
believed it was a miscarriage. She believed the baby was

424
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.359
born still, and then after it was well, maybe the

425
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:27.440
baby may have made a sound, maybe her foot was moving.

426
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.720
They kind of they act like it made her unreliable,

427
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:38.599
but it's very clear that she was incoherent. So it's

428
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.799
hard for me to, I guess, rationalize their thought process

429
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.559
because you have two widely different circumstances. But I know that,

430
00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:49.519
at least in my opinion, they based a lot of

431
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:51.640
it off of the text she sent to the boyfriend.

432
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.359
And if you could explain a little bit about that,

433
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:59.559
because I think that that's what really shaped how the

434
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:04.440
media and the public opinion was formed of Emily.

435
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.880
Oh yeah, those text messages ended up being featured in

436
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.079
tabloid headlines all over the world, and they're probably the

437
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:15.640
most known aspect of Emily's case. And you know, just

438
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.799
in terms of the two police interrogations and the variation

439
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.880
in her narratives there, right, the one that's occurring immediately

440
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:25.079
after the birth, basically same day, and then the other

441
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.160
that's occurring while she's still like just wheeled out of

442
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.640
her DNC procedure, still under the effect of all of

443
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:35.279
those different medications. So one, I think anyone would tell

444
00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.400
a confusing story if they were being interrogated in those

445
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.920
two particular moments in life. And if you look at

446
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:43.720
the way her narrative changes in small ways, what I

447
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:45.920
see there, You know, women in these cases are known

448
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.400
to be more passive, more people pleasing. I see her

449
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.160
trying to make the cop happy, like she's she's trying

450
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:58.319
to be agreeable, and she has no self protective consideration.

451
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.559
She is not trying to protect herself whatsoever. She is

452
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:04.160
like trying to make the officer who she's viewing as

453
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:08.160
an authority figure happy with how the conversation's going, and

454
00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:11.519
that ends up honestly ruining the entire rest of her

455
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:13.759
life at this point in time. Where we're left at

456
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.039
this point because even though she's had the benefit of

457
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:18.839
having a much better post convictions appeals attorney a really

458
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.400
brilliant one, and a new sentence a hearing, her first

459
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.759
opportunity for role is still after twenty years, and her

460
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.839
original sentence was life without the possibility of parole. Those

461
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:35.160
two interrogations led to her being convicted for aggravated murder

462
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.920
and receiving in some ways a really harsh sentence. Even

463
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.200
for that, I think the text messages are in some

464
00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:43.359
ways some of the hardest evidence to really make sense

465
00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:47.599
of in this case, and they've been taken out of

466
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.319
context and shortened. So if you look at the entire conversation,

467
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:57.400
Emily texts her ex boyfriend after the labor and delivery

468
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.119
before she's taken into custody that same day, and you know,

469
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:05.799
at this point, no one knows which she's just been

470
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:08.079
through what her or deal was. You know, I think

471
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.240
if you look at this generation's text conversations too, like

472
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:13.799
there's a snarkiness and there's like a darker, sort of

473
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.880
sharp kind of humor. Man, that doesn't play well in courtrooms.

474
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.519
So again, so you're sort of seeing something generational in

475
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.720
the tone and style of the conversation there. And yeah,

476
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:25.880
she sort of is like, yeah, no more baby, is

477
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.400
how she starts the conversation, because this was something that

478
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:30.160
they had been going back and forth over and he

479
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.599
was basically like, you better not be having a baby,

480
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.880
and does anyone know, like keep the secret? So she

481
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.200
writes to sort of have a bit of a job

482
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:40.359
at him and just be like, yeah, it's taken care of.

483
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.160
You know, this thing you didn't want in the first

484
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.480
place is taken care of. And that ends up looking

485
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.960
incredibly incriminating and awful, and it makes it seem like

486
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:50.119
there's a lot of intention there. But if you keep

487
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:54.519
reading the conversation, she invents a better story for herself

488
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:56.880
where she was actually taken care of when she wasn't.

489
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:59.839
And this actually breaks my heart because in the rest

490
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:02.519
of the conversation, she basically says yeah, I went to

491
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:07.119
a hospital and there were placenta complications and this is

492
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:09.039
what happened. And of course none of those things happened.

493
00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:10.880
She didn't make it to a hospital, no one took

494
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.279
care of her. And I think she just wanted this

495
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:16.279
better story, and she knew she was gonna.

496
00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:16.880
Have to follow up a logan.

497
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.759
At some point that conversation gets taken so out of

498
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.000
context it ends up making it seem as if she's

499
00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:24.480
acting with intention and malice when she really wasn't.

500
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:26.440
And you can see this sort of.

501
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.720
The way in which she and so many of us

502
00:28:29.079 --> 00:28:31.839
rely on narratives to create a better story for ourselves

503
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:32.920
in life.

504
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.559
And you really see that.

505
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:38.319
Denial being a coping mechanism in so many ways, and

506
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.640
when that's something that really was a huge part or

507
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:45.119
defining aspect of Emily's childhood experience and how she was raised,

508
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.279
and you just sort of see that mindset and it's

509
00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:51.440
really the only coping mechanism she was introduced to at home,

510
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:54.240
within her family life. You really see that just sort

511
00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:56.640
of taking over and distorting things in ways that end

512
00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.440
up being taken out of context and end up being

513
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:00.720
just so room for her.

514
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.079
No, I agree, and looking at the text, even taking

515
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:08.559
them in the correct context and understanding kind of her

516
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.640
mindset in the moment where she's trying to convince herself

517
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:18.240
that this is what really happened. It's very damning, it is,

518
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.200
and it is unfortunate because I do think that there

519
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:24.680
were a lot of things that were taken out of

520
00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:29.759
context with the media and how it forms public opinion

521
00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:32.480
of her and how it impacted her case, besides the

522
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:36.039
fact that she had a terrible lawyer. I do think

523
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:40.440
that the text messages, unfortunately, you know, hindsight's twenty twenty.

524
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.880
She never should have sent them, and she did, and

525
00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:47.039
it did negatively, really really impact her case.

526
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.720
Yeah, I think that's right, and I think obviously she

527
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.799
would take them back if she could now. And I

528
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:56.839
think when I look at it from like sort of

529
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.680
a broader bird's eye view and I think about those messages,

530
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.759
they make it easy to put her into that monster

531
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:06.000
mom category or box, which is the box that we

532
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:09.039
see the cases in this regard that our high profile

533
00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:12.680
all fit in that category. The woman is universally demonized.

534
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.759
The cases where there's leniency don't make the news, so

535
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.759
we're only going to see these cases where villainization is possible,

536
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:23.119
sensationalism is possible. Emily's case, because of the setting in

537
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:26.640
the sorority house, was sort of immediately of interest to

538
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.799
tabloids and certain kinds of media, and the text messages

539
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.839
just helped immediately sort of put her into that box.

540
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.119
And I think the risk of indulging in that is

541
00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:39.400
that it makes it seem as if women who are

542
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.640
at risk for having something like this happen to them

543
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:46.599
or doing something like this, are identifiable and evil and

544
00:30:46.680 --> 00:30:49.480
like this is not something that my daughter or my

545
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:52.680
niece could be at risk for. And that's where we

546
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:57.000
make the biggest mistake, because Emily is exactly like our

547
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.839
daughters and our nieces and our best friends, and if

548
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:01.920
she is at risk for something like this happening in

549
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:05.920
her life, so are they, and so leaning into this

550
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.880
ability to demonize her just makes us less willing to

551
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:13.640
recognize risk around us and to sort of help take

552
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.799
action and protect the women and girls in our life

553
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:17.599
who might also be at risk.

554
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:23.240
No, absolutely, and looking at Emily's story, you see that

555
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.759
it's not just certain cases where women could do this

556
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.359
or have this happened to them. It quite literally could

557
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:34.559
be the proverbial girl next door. I mean Emily and

558
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.359
I are the same age. Yeah, we were in college

559
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.160
at the same time. Like we're the exact same age.

560
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.359
Like her story could very easily have been anyone that's

561
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:49.319
my age. There's a lot of similarities there, and that's scary.

562
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:51.839
It is it's scary. You know, it could be you know,

563
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:56.839
my sister. Now, it could really happen to anybody. Speaking

564
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.839
of the ones that or the cases where the women

565
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:02.680
are I met with more sympathy. Why do you think

566
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.160
that is where some women get that sympathy and others don't.

567
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:09.720
I think a lot of it has to do with

568
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:13.599
who they're going to interact with at first, and to

569
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:17.759
what extent that Like is it a medical professional or

570
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.960
a family member, and are they given the benefit of

571
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.599
the doubt right away in that moment. I think if

572
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.359
Emily had been at home with her mom and had

573
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.599
a miscarriage or had gone through a similar kind of

574
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:33.680
ordeal take it to a hospital, what version of what

575
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:36.319
really happened would have emerged first would be very different.

576
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.680
And I think that's often the case, Like if a

577
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:41.559
parent is bringing a child to a hospital and they're

578
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.440
collectively in a state of panic, it's going to lead

579
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:46.519
to a different outcome in terms like are we instantly

580
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:48.799
calling the police? So I think the fact that she

581
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.000
was alone, hadn't had a family member interact with her

582
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.960
or a medical professional interact with her first, created a

583
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.920
particular kind of legal vulnerability, and then just her mindset,

584
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.119
which is also similar for other women in these cases too,

585
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:05.039
can create that kind of vulnerability. That lack of that

586
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.759
self protective awareness. And yeah, you know, I think a

587
00:33:07.799 --> 00:33:11.240
medical professional in this situation could choose to empathize or

588
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:12.680
can choose to call the cops.

589
00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:13.480
And it can go either way.

590
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.279
If there's you know, I hate to say this, but

591
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:19.720
it's definitely a pattern historically and today.

592
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:20.920
If there's like a.

593
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:24.799
Male family member, father particularly, who's stepping up for his

594
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:28.039
daughter in this situation and speaking on her behalf, that

595
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.279
ends up making a huge difference to in terms of

596
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:33.119
public perception and awareness. If she's sort of embraced, is

597
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.039
like this is a daddy's girl, or someone who's under

598
00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:40.079
the auspices of a male authority figure with more status,

599
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:42.559
that can play a really decisive role too.

600
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.079
That makes a lot of sense. I mean, having that

601
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:51.680
male protection almost you know, because and unfortunately we still

602
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.000
do this today, where a man's word is going to

603
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:57.480
bear more weight. So if you do have that male

604
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.359
figure kind of advocating for the woman, it just it

605
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:02.559
makes their case stronger.

606
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:06.119
And I also think there were aspects of timing and

607
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:08.800
local politics that played into Emily's case as well that

608
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:12.519
really worked against her quite unfortunately. As I said, there

609
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.800
was that case twelve years prior, same campus, same courtroom,

610
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.679
different judge, same original interrogating officer, and public perception of

611
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:24.280
that case. You know, that young woman received i believe,

612
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:28.440
initially a three year sentence and then actually got out

613
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.760
early after that. It was a much lighter sentence for

614
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:36.719
that particular case, and the memory of that case was lasting.

615
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.679
Public opinion of that particular sentence was extremely negative. People

616
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.880
wrote really angry op eds, People were really up in

617
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:48.480
arms by how that case was handled. And so I

618
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:52.960
think Emily's case came immediately after that huge public reaction

619
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:56.239
to that particularly more lenient verdict. And so when I

620
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.920
see the decision to charge with aggravated murder, I can't

621
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:03.679
but think it was also impacted by those local timing

622
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.760
and politics as well. And then you see this courthouse

623
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:10.159
in Zanesville, where these prosecutors go through their entire careers

624
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.159
one hundred percent success, So that's a factor too.

625
00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:19.719
No, absolutely, I agree that previous case definitely impacted Emily's.

626
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.320
It almost like the you know, the community didn't want

627
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.800
to repeat the same mistake, whether you want to view

628
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.320
it as a mistake or not. The one aspect of

629
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.079
Emily's case which I think a lot of people don't

630
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.440
believe is something that actually exists, is the pregnancy denial

631
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.519
that she was experiencing. So at least in your experience

632
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.079
or your opinion, you know what could cause someone like

633
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:44.960
Emily to completely convince themselves that they aren't pregnant? You

634
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:48.480
know what? What are some of those factors in how

635
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:52.239
it could create a circumstance like Emily's.

636
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:57.320
This is the hardest question to answer on the stand

637
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.239
when I'm doing expert witness work, and it's all the

638
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.679
question I get asked most frequently my friends and family

639
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.599
who are curious about my work, and it's certainly a

640
00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:09.480
question that I empathize with. I've been pregnant twice, and

641
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:13.400
you know a very physical person, so for me, nothing

642
00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:16.639
could be more physically obvious than a pregnancy and me.

643
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.239
I think I was the most hyper aware of absolutely

644
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:21.079
every single thing going on in my body for the

645
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:24.000
entire nine months of both of my pregnancies, and like

646
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:27.199
a very granular and very obsessive fashion. And I know

647
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:29.960
that's true for a lot of expecting moms. And what

648
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.320
I've had to learn and what I have learned over

649
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:34.519
the course of doing this research and thanks to actually

650
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:38.159
emerging in really interesting new research in neuroscience and medicine

651
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:42.159
that's just coming out, is that pregnancy recognition itself is

652
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.239
actually a really complex process for everyone. Like, let's set

653
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.719
aside for a moment, women like Emily who experience an

654
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.159
unperceived pregnancy or have a certain element of pregnancy denial

655
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:55.119
and play, women like moms who are wanting babies, who

656
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.400
are intentionally trying to get pregnant. Even in those situations,

657
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:01.480
coming to recognize a pregnancy isn't like this one and done,

658
00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.079
like oh, conception and now I'm confident that I'm pregnant.

659
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:08.000
Moving forward, it's like, Okay, I'm starting to be aware

660
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:10.480
that maybe this could have happened. Now, maybe I'll go

661
00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:14.000
out and purchase a home pregnancy test. Okay, now maybe

662
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:18.639
I'll book a doctor's appointment and have an ultrasound conducted.

663
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:22.400
Then Okay, which family members am I going to tell first?

664
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.480
How concerned am I about potential miscarriage? I might choose

665
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:28.320
to withhold that information for a long time if I'm

666
00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.719
having those kinds of concerns, because who do you want

667
00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:33.719
to follow up with and have to have that conversation with. So,

668
00:37:33.880 --> 00:37:37.920
even in situations where a baby is desired and planned, pregnancy,

669
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:42.280
recognition is still this complex, multi step process that has

670
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.920
huge implications for women's sense of themselves, their identities, their

671
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:48.920
social life, their standing, and that can go so many

672
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:53.199
different ways. And then just the raw recognition itself is

673
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:59.719
accompanied by proactive help seeking actions, rallying your community, achieving

674
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.679
medical care for yourself, prenatal care in this country, which

675
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:04.840
is like an achievement for women in a lot part

676
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:07.280
of the country, like I live in Vermont, there are

677
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:09.400
rural parts of the state where that's hard to do.

678
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:11.239
So going through.

679
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:14.119
Those help seeking processes and those processes of rallying your

680
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:17.639
social network, you know, this takes the whole nine months

681
00:38:18.039 --> 00:38:21.400
and is really complex and multifaceted for all women. So

682
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.480
that's important to consider first and foremost, just those complexities

683
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:28.679
of pregnancy recognition. Then in cases where those two things

684
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.920
don't go hand in hand, where recognition and help seeking

685
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:35.320
aren't accompanied, that can happen for a range of really

686
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:39.679
really different reasons, some of which are purely biological and medical,

687
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.719
some of which are very psychological and social. So new

688
00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:47.639
research shows us that unperceived pregnancies are far more common

689
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:51.239
than most people realize. One in between three and five

690
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.320
hundred pregnancies in the US and Europe goes unrecognized till

691
00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:59.119
the third trimester. That's without any particular kind of conscious

692
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:02.840
intension or shame or anything like it. Just biologically, women

693
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:05.719
aren't aware that that's what's happening in their bodies, and

694
00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:08.320
it might be that they don't have the same sort

695
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:13.320
of assumed normal signs and symptoms pregnancies described as cryptic,

696
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.199
like the baby's positioning. The baby could be standing up

697
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.280
inside the mother's body, and thus the weight gain isn't

698
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:21.920
going to look the same. So all of these things

699
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:23.840
can be factors and in play, and I think women

700
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.719
in those situations ask themselves like, wait, am I experiencing

701
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.119
morning sickness or gaining weight? What's really going on here?

702
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.239
And it can be murky and unclear.

703
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:32.239
And then if you.

704
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:36.159
Add the social aspects where it's like, oh, I'm not

705
00:39:36.199 --> 00:39:38.960
supposed to be pregnant, I fear that my community and

706
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:40.400
my family will reject me.

707
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:42.440
I'm not married.

708
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:45.840
Like, there's all kinds of different things social norms, cultural norms,

709
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:48.880
religious norms that dictate whether or not a new mom

710
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:51.519
is going to be accepted and embraced or can anticipate

711
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:55.159
being accepted and embraced. That could lead to those elements

712
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:57.880
of shame and stigma where you might have more of

713
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:01.840
a denial mindset coming into play. And in that space

714
00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:04.920
when we're kind of thinking about the psychology around denial

715
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:06.320
is like a coping mechanism.

716
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:07.000
One.

717
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:08.639
It's not a conscious choice.

718
00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:10.360
No one is like, oh, I'm choosing to rely on

719
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:12.760
denial to get through my day to day, right Like, no,

720
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:16.639
we don't choose this for ourselves. What's happening is we're

721
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.920
experiencing reality is unbearable and this is the only way

722
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:22.880
that we can get through the day. And so that

723
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:26.239
you're confronted with this reality that feels unbearable, it feels terrifying,

724
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.840
and you're maybe having some rising intellectual awareness, especially in

725
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:34.800
that third trimester, right, because we know that pregnancies proceed really,

726
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:39.119
really slowly. You can be wearing your same genes up

727
00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:41.960
until really late, and then all of a sudden those

728
00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:44.519
genes are not working out for you anymore. And so

729
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:48.480
then it's like, Okay, there's an emerging intellectual awareness I

730
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:53.119
think I might possibly be pregnant, but there isn't the

731
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:56.800
accompanying emotional awareness that would actually get you to take

732
00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:59.079
some kind of action to do something like, Okay, this

733
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.920
is actually a crisis, like I need help. So you

734
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.840
have that intellectual awareness, but you don't have the emotional

735
00:41:05.440 --> 00:41:09.039
emotional reaction that would lead to actually finding safety for

736
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:10.119
yourself for the labor.

737
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:14.159
Again, I know a lot of people don't believe that

738
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:16.800
this is a real thing. But in the same vein

739
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.960
people also accept that a woman can convince themselves that

740
00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:24.039
they're pregnant. So and that's a deeply psychological thing too,

741
00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.679
where they experience physical symptoms of pregnancy even if they're not.

742
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.639
So it's interesting to me that people accept that but

743
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:32.519
not pregnancy denial.

744
00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:37.079
Yeah, that's actually in the DSM and a recognized condition.

745
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:41.440
Now there's a move now by really wonderful maternal mental

746
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:45.159
health expert, a close friend and mentor of mine, Diana Barnes,

747
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:49.039
is trying working really hard to have unperceived pregnancy added

748
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.519
to the diagnostic manual and recognized in this way, which

749
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:54.280
I think would be a really powerful thing, and it

750
00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:56.440
would make a huge difference in terms of these kinds

751
00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.360
of trials, and it is it's really hard to understand,

752
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.440
but the reality is that it's been experienced by women

753
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:03.239
throughout history.

754
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:06.000
It's been reported on. It's not some novel.

755
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:09.559
I've heard it described recently as like a designer defense,

756
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:14.840
and that really really bothers me because it erases so

757
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:18.800
much of women's experiences historically and today, also flattens out

758
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:22.320
the experience of pregnancy for everyone, Like no I experience

759
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:24.760
pregnancy in the ways it's described in the books, but

760
00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:28.800
not everyone does. And that sort of hubris of thinking that, like,

761
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.360
my experience is the same as everyone else's, un thus

762
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.079
someone else's isn't real that strikes me as just profoundly

763
00:42:35.159 --> 00:42:37.599
unfair in these cases, especially.

764
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.199
Now, I agree, especially because it's not it's not a

765
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.679
linear thing. It's not it's not a binary you know,

766
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.239
there's there's so many different ways it could go. But

767
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:50.960
how do you know, preconceived notions about pregnancy and motherhood

768
00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.360
influence the legal process in these cases. You know what

769
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:56.320
is the impact that that has?

770
00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:59.199
I mean, one, I think it ends up playing out

771
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:03.039
in the young and who's experiencing pregnancy denials mentality, Like

772
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:05.559
she'll be like, oh, I'm not gaining weight or I'm

773
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:07.760
not experiencing warning sickness, and you see only going through

774
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.599
that checklist in her mind later in the pregnancy and

775
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:12.079
using it as a way to be like, oh, and this,

776
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:14.199
I must not actually be pregnant. So it's like those

777
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:18.679
assumptions and leading to even more taking out of risk

778
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.079
for women in these cases. And then in terms of

779
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:25.199
the trial context, this is so painful, but it ends

780
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:28.639
up just really condemning women to harsher sentences than I

781
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.280
think are fair appropriate. It makes them look as if

782
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.719
they chose this for themselves and we're acting with greater

783
00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:39.960
intention than they really were, because prosecutors will often just

784
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:43.280
completely dismiss it on the stand out of hand, and

785
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:46.599
you know, judges who maybe haven't experience these these things

786
00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:49.960
for themselves will agree with that and agree that it's

787
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.480
absolutely absurd. No one could possibly And that's where you

788
00:43:53.559 --> 00:43:57.920
see a huge benefit to having a maternal mental health

789
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.920
expert testify and be involved in sentencing decisions, and just

790
00:44:01.960 --> 00:44:05.199
the sheer importance of that. And even in cases where

791
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:08.519
that happens, sometimes that testimony will also just be dismissed

792
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:11.400
out of hand. But in the absence of that testimony,

793
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:15.519
it's really almost impossible to get past that set of assumptions.

794
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:20.840
I agree. And obviously you have circumstances where the mothers

795
00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:25.159
kill their infants or I mean in like brutal ways.

796
00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:30.199
You know that's that's different to a case like Emily's,

797
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:33.960
where there were so many factors. You know, she herself

798
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.440
didn't intentionally try to kill her child, she didn't brutally

799
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:40.639
murder her child. The punishment has to fit the crime

800
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:44.320
in that regard, I don't believe that you know life

801
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:49.159
in prison is appropriate in Emily's case, whereas you know

802
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.400
life in prisonment may be appropriate in another woman's case

803
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.320
where they brutally murdered their child. So in terms of

804
00:44:55.400 --> 00:45:00.440
like policies and interventions that could prevent in fan aside,

805
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.440
what at least can be done to identify like high

806
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:05.800
risk situations, do you think, well, I.

807
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.639
Just want to quickly follow up on what you just said,

808
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:11.679
because I think it's so important to underscore that, Yeah,

809
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:15.559
Emily's case ends up getting prosecuted as an aggravated murder,

810
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.000
but if we look really carefully at what really happened

811
00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:23.840
during the tragedy, it's a tragic accident, and her biggest

812
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:26.440
sort of fault was not was failing to ask for help.

813
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:29.920
So for that to be prosecuted as and aggravated murders

814
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.599
is very inappropriate and just doesn't look accurately at the

815
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.960
facts of the situation, and prevention is really tricky. So

816
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.400
this is kind of a whole separate and different conversation,

817
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:42.320
And I think the first thing I would want to

818
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.079
say is a bit of a coveyat or just sort

819
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:46.559
of like an asterisk at the front of the conversation,

820
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:49.440
which is that we're seeing so many policies now that

821
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:54.679
are leading to increased scrutiny of possibly pregnant women and

822
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:58.320
young women, and I do not support her endorse any

823
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:02.079
policies that would deprive younger women who are potentially at

824
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:05.000
risk of getting pregnant for any violation of their privacy

825
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:07.880
above and beyond anyone else in society, and it would

826
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.280
lead to potentially even greater risk and greater kinds of concealment.

827
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:13.519
So it's really important not to be sort of like

828
00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:17.360
hyper scrutinizing in that particular way, and or to assume

829
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:20.679
that those kinds of policies would help save infant lives.

830
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:24.920
I absolutely disagree with that. And then I think, you know,

831
00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:28.719
neonata sides and the kinds of cases like Emily's, which

832
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:32.760
are infant homicides and or tragic infant deaths that occur

833
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.239
right at birth, are actually a very small percentage of

834
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:40.920
the overall infant homicide rate in the US, and other

835
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:45.440
forms of infant homicide that occur slightly later are actually,

836
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.039
i to my mind, easier to prevent than neonata sides

837
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.000
and really shouldn't be considered first and then above and

838
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.480
beyond that. If our true focus is really saving babies,

839
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.679
which is such an important objective, we have to think

840
00:46:59.719 --> 00:47:03.360
even more broadly about infant mortality in the US first

841
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.440
and foremost. If we're just thinking about prevention, we really

842
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:10.840
want to start the conversation with infant mortality, because we

843
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:13.880
have much higher rates of infant mortality in the US

844
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:19.039
than other countries with similar economies and similar political systems,

845
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:22.679
and that has to do with entirely preventable infant deaths

846
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.840
that occur largely because people don't have the right access

847
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:29.039
to the right kind of health care, and that we

848
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:31.199
really have to look at those cases first and foremost, Like,

849
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:33.599
if we're thinking about public health policy and we're thinking

850
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:37.920
about allocating resources, that should really be the first part

851
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.559
of that kind of conversation. Then we could step back

852
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:43.840
and we could look at the infant homicide problem. These

853
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.960
are much smaller numbers. The majority of infant homicides in

854
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.440
the US occur later in the first year of life,

855
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:56.400
and they're accidental deaths caused by male partners during episodes

856
00:47:56.400 --> 00:48:00.719
of physical abuse committed against the infant. And these cases,

857
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:05.079
I think are more susceptible prevention one because they're accidental

858
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:08.840
and they're usually not the first instance of physical abuse

859
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:12.280
against the infant. So this is a baby that's already

860
00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:14.760
been brought to the hospital and seen by medical staff

861
00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:18.000
more than once because of physical abuse in the household,

862
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:20.760
that then is rushed back in in an emergency context

863
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:25.000
and dies. So that to me suggests that if medical

864
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:29.119
professionals are seeing physical violence against a newborn to be

865
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.679
highly concerned that there is risk that this baby could

866
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.079
be killed later and to sort of try to intervene

867
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.159
very assertively in a moment like that early on, and

868
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.800
to sort of notice that that is the bigger infant

869
00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:44.239
homicide problem in the country and that we have really

870
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:47.760
higher rates of this to other countries. That are necessary,

871
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:49.840
and I think we have to have a conversation it's

872
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:54.559
very hard to have about physical abuse and about violence

873
00:48:54.599 --> 00:48:59.400
within families and also just physically putative forms of discipline

874
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:02.599
and how in appropriate those are for babies and young children.

875
00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:06.960
I'm glad you mentioned that, because it is primarily later

876
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:10.760
on in an infant's life, you know, later on in

877
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:15.360
that first year, where if they are being killed, it

878
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:18.760
is for reasons like that, because of physical abuse, whether

879
00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:25.480
accidental or not. And I think in the sense of

880
00:49:26.440 --> 00:49:30.039
women that are where their children are dying immediately after

881
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.079
birth or you know, within the first hour or so,

882
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:36.519
it's not necessarily because they are inherently evil, like as

883
00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:40.639
we've said, it's there's a lack of help that they have,

884
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:45.159
and that, at least in my view, is what's needed,

885
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:48.000
is that there's that critical lack of resource. Theres a

886
00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:51.519
critical act of healthcare and that we just keep shurping

887
00:49:51.559 --> 00:49:55.920
away more and more, and that's where that problem lies.

888
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.719
Absolutely, And I think if we get closer to those

889
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.039
small all our numbers of infant homicides, there's ones that

890
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:06.480
happen in the postpartum period, and then there's the neonata sides.

891
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:08.800
So the ones that are there's actually about a quartered

892
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:10.559
to with a third of infant homicides occur in that

893
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:14.119
postpartum period, but the ones that happen after the first

894
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:17.400
day of life are actually again more susceptible to intervention

895
00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:20.679
because those are the ones that are caused when women

896
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:25.760
are dealing with postpartum psychosis severe postpartum depression. They're having

897
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.079
both suicidal and homicidal thoughts idiations, and that's.

898
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:31.800
Terrifying for them.

899
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:35.079
Those women are far more likely to seek out help,

900
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.199
and they're more likely to talk about the suicidal ideation

901
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:44.000
than the homicidal one. But again, for medical professionals to

902
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.159
be aware and to be concerned in those situations, there's

903
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:49.760
really room to intervene there. And I've seen sort of

904
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:52.000
the leading forensic psychiatrists who do work in this area

905
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.519
also argue that those kinds of infant homicides are more

906
00:50:55.519 --> 00:51:01.559
preventable than the neonata side cases now side cases. It's

907
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.639
really tricky because, you know, the cases I've looked at

908
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:08.960
really in depth and closely, there's often a kind of

909
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.519
whispered awareness in the community around the woman that this

910
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:15.880
is something that is happening. This takes the form of gossip, right,

911
00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:18.960
So there's a certain gossip network that this is happening,

912
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:20.239
that this person is pregnant.

913
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:21.440
So you're seeing this.

914
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:25.960
Buzz around the young woman. And and then you know, if

915
00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:28.199
you look at Emily's case, you can even see concerned

916
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:32.519
friends trying to get through and ask like, hey, we're

917
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:35.559
in the mall uh at the food court, do you

918
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:38.920
maybe think you might be pregnant? Or there's another situation

919
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:41.800
where they're in the kitchen together cooking, and you know,

920
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:44.559
her house manager asked her directly like are you pregnant?

921
00:51:45.159 --> 00:51:48.400
And in those situations, you know, Emily's reaction is just

922
00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:51.559
to say no, and everyone just kind of moves on

923
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:53.559
with their day and gets back to it. And I

924
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:56.159
look at that and I think, Okay, yeah, if you're

925
00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:58.840
going to try to intervene in a situation like this,

926
00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:04.119
you are violating so many social norms. You have to

927
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:08.840
be so impolite to say, like, hey, you're gaining weight

928
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:10.480
in this really obvious way.

929
00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:11.239
What the heck?

930
00:52:11.559 --> 00:52:11.719
You know?

931
00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:14.039
I think that for most people, it's not some like

932
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:17.559
cruelty to be gossiping. It's a politeness, it's a conformity

933
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:19.960
to a social norm. And then it's also that way

934
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.960
in which narrative protects us and we want to support

935
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:26.639
our friends better story for themselves. And you know, I'll say,

936
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:29.239
at first, when I started doing research on this case,

937
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:33.519
there was a part of me that was actually angry,

938
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:37.440
I think, with the sorority sisters for gossiping and not intervening.

939
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:40.920
And then the more I thought about it, and the

940
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:43.920
more I thought about myself at that age, I realized

941
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.440
that I would have done exactly the same thing in

942
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:49.119
their shoes, and that I actually had done the same thing,

943
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:52.440
not in terms of unperceived pregnancy, but friends with really

944
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:56.840
severe eating disorders, friends and abusive relationships. I think these

945
00:52:56.840 --> 00:53:00.440
are really similar kinds of situations where intervention is so different, occult,

946
00:53:01.000 --> 00:53:03.960
and so necessary. I don't think the circumstance is that

947
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:07.239
different from a friend who's yeah, in that abusive relationship

948
00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:10.599
that could get really dangerous, or who's suffering from you know,

949
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.880
even other kinds of like addiction disorders too, Like how

950
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.840
do you intervene? It's not enough to just say, hey,

951
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:20.559
do you think this relationship is getting dangerous? And then

952
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:21.960
it's a first and says no, I think it's going

953
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.599
to be fine to back off. I think if I

954
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:27.320
was going to try to talk or try to offer

955
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:30.599
a script to concern friends, it would be something like

956
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:35.599
sitting down holding a hand, saying, you know, unperceived pregnancy

957
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:37.840
is real. If this can happen, you could be pregnant

958
00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.159
and totally not even know about it, and that happens

959
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:42.639
way more frequently than people realize.

960
00:53:43.159 --> 00:53:44.679
Why don't I you know.

961
00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:46.880
I got a pregnancy test right here. Let's just take

962
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.480
it together. I'll hold your hand the whole time.

963
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:51.039
If it comes back.

964
00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:53.920
Positive, you still have lots of good options, and I'm

965
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:55.559
going to help you figure out which one of those

966
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.320
good options works best for you. If you can want

967
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:00.760
to keep this baby, I'm going to be so I'm

968
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:02.719
going to throw the baby shower for you. I Am

969
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.159
going to be here for you every step of the

970
00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:09.400
way and to just help actually overcome the fear of

971
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:12.039
seeking help and to sort of initiate in that kind

972
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:15.800
of way. But I don't think that's an easy thing

973
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.599
to do. And I think we have to be loved

974
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.519
so well by the people around us to have them

975
00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:23.000
step up for us in those ways.

976
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:27.199
Absolutely, it's as you said, it's difficult to have those

977
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:30.559
conversations in general, regardless of whether it's pregnancy, addiction and

978
00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:35.000
music relationship, because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable for anyone to

979
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:37.760
bring that up because you know you're going to if

980
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:42.840
you're wrong, naturally offends that person. And you know, barring

981
00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:46.960
someone that doesn't care about things like that, that's not

982
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.840
something anyone wants to do, especially someone that you in

983
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:53.000
Emily's case, you're living with in the same house. You know,

984
00:54:53.039 --> 00:54:55.199
whether it's your friend or family member. Like, it's really

985
00:54:55.239 --> 00:55:00.239
difficult to have that conversation, and people are naturally to

986
00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:02.559
shy away from it. They may ask, but if they

987
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:04.639
get to know, they're not going to press the issue.

988
00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:11.960
And it's understandable why, because it's so incredibly uncomfortable. I

989
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:16.239
can understand why her sorority sisters were like, Okay, like

990
00:55:16.280 --> 00:55:18.519
that's fine, you said you're not I'm going to believe you.

991
00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:20.920
I'm going to take you out your word, because to

992
00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:23.800
press the issue makes you look like a jerk. And people,

993
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.639
especially you know, a young girl, doesn't want that. They

994
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.719
want to be liked, They don't want to offend their friends,

995
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:32.280
especially if they have to share a space with them. So,

996
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:35.280
as you mentioned before, you you've served as an expert

997
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:39.440
witness in some of these cases, including Chloe, Copeland Anderson's case.

998
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:42.239
What was that experience like for you? If if you

999
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.880
don't mind sharing and personally professionally, how did that impact you.

1000
00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:48.800
This is the first case that I've actually worked on,

1001
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:52.039
not just as a as a researcher studying the case,

1002
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:54.840
but actually showing up to testify in the courtroom and

1003
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:59.519
submitting official reports in that way. Chloe's case is really horrific,

1004
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.559
one of the more violent NEONATA sides I've ever seen.

1005
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:07.960
Chloe ended up stabbing her baby multiple times in the

1006
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:10.760
throat and heart, you know, so clearly it's a really

1007
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:14.480
different kind of a case. And also so the NEONATA

1008
00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:17.880
side itself is more violent than most NEONATA sides, and

1009
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:22.280
Chloe's life leading up to that was also so much

1010
00:56:22.280 --> 00:56:27.320
more violent. She's someone who's just experienced nothing but extreme

1011
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:30.599
mental and physical abuse in her family. For her entire

1012
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:33.920
life is just defined by that, as well as different

1013
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:37.599
kinds of abuse by other family members, things that are

1014
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:39.840
still coming to light and still being investigated now. And

1015
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:42.719
I think that in some ways her extreme history of

1016
00:56:42.760 --> 00:56:46.679
trauma and abuse is barely known and would never have

1017
00:56:46.760 --> 00:56:49.079
even been really brought forward if it hadn't been for

1018
00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:51.599
the trial. And then sort of like the reports that

1019
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.440
were written at that time, that case was really hard

1020
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:59.639
to work on. I you know, I think that Emily's

1021
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:01.960
case was also hard to work on, but for different reasons.

1022
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:05.519
And what ended up being fortunate in this case was

1023
00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:08.440
that because I'd gone through what I went through around

1024
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:12.159
Emily's case, I knew to seek out more therapeutic support

1025
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:16.760
for myself before interviewing Chloe, before going out to Nebraska,

1026
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:20.559
and before going through her police file. Because when I

1027
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:24.719
originally went out to Ohio to interview Emily and to

1028
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:27.199
go through later to go through the police file there too,

1029
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:30.880
which includes all the crime scene photographs and autopsy photographs.

1030
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:34.400
I think that because my background as a sociologist and

1031
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:38.199
a historian, I didn't have the same kind of awareness

1032
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:42.039
of secondary trauma that you know, a forensic psychiatrist or

1033
00:57:42.039 --> 00:57:44.280
a psychiatrist would sort.

1034
00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:45.159
Of know going in.

1035
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:48.800
So I didn't have any sense of what secondary trauma

1036
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.360
was when I started doing work in this area, and

1037
00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:54.599
it wasn't until it had really like messed with my

1038
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:57.519
nervous system, I would say, actually for years that I

1039
00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.639
began to take it seriously to acknowledge it.

1040
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.840
So like originally I had.

1041
00:58:02.760 --> 00:58:06.679
Tons of physical symptoms, I would lose my appetite. I mean,

1042
00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:09.000
I honestly think I lost my appetite for actually years

1043
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:12.280
at a time, and also just like tons of inflammation

1044
00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:13.199
and other.

1045
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:13.719
Things like that.

1046
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:15.760
And so I knew that if I was going to

1047
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.440
really be able to be of service to Chloe and

1048
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:21.599
to really see her case acturately, I was going to

1049
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:25.280
need more support. And I was actually able to connect

1050
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:28.599
with a really wonderful therapist in my area here who

1051
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:31.360
works with therapists who are exposed to a lot of

1052
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:34.480
secondary trauma and come to find out there's a lot

1053
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:36.400
of ways of coping with it that are more healthy,

1054
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:39.840
And through that process, I've really learned to like be

1055
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:42.960
emotionally expressive in the moment, and also that there are

1056
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.679
certain things you can do immediately after looking at images

1057
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:49.480
or having particular kinds of conversations, and so I've found

1058
00:58:49.599 --> 00:58:52.199
I've ended up finding a lot more support for myself.

1059
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:55.119
And I would certainly encourage anyone who's thinking about during

1060
00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.480
work in areas where they are exposed to secondary trauma

1061
00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:01.599
to seek that help out, because the resources are there

1062
00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:04.519
and it's really really powerful, and overall, I think it's

1063
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:08.159
helped me psychologically so much separate from the work, just

1064
00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:09.800
in terms of my everyday life as well.

1065
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:13.320
That's so important, and I've talked about this countless times.

1066
00:59:14.039 --> 00:59:16.480
Especially when you're involved in this space, whether it's actually

1067
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:18.320
working with crime, you're working with people that I've been

1068
00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:22.159
through extreme traumas, you are at risk for traumatizing yourself.

1069
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:26.800
I have traumatized myself working on some of the cases

1070
00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:30.880
I worked on, reading or watching things about some of

1071
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.119
the cases I worked on. It's deeply traumatic, and I've

1072
00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:39.559
physically reacted to the cases that I've researched, or the

1073
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:41.960
pictures that I've had to look at, or the transcripts

1074
00:59:41.960 --> 00:59:44.840
I've had to read, like it can be deeply traumatizing.

1075
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:48.159
And so for anyone like going into that space, whether

1076
00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:51.880
professionally or just because they have an interest in it.

1077
00:59:51.880 --> 00:59:56.360
It is so important to protect your well being because

1078
00:59:56.440 --> 01:00:00.880
it can have such a deeply profound negative impact on

1079
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:04.320
your psyche and your physical and your mental health.

1080
01:00:04.920 --> 01:00:07.239
Yeah, for me, it's just it took such a hit

1081
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:10.159
on my nervous system and it's so hard to switch

1082
01:00:10.239 --> 01:00:13.440
out of that gear. And I think it's fascinating that

1083
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:15.920
it's a species that's how our bodies react, that we

1084
01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:18.280
experience each other's trauma in those ways, or if we're

1085
01:00:18.280 --> 01:00:21.320
going to empathize with these kinds of experiences, that like

1086
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:24.119
we fully take it on in that way, and that

1087
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:27.039
the body can't really tell the difference. And I think

1088
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:28.719
that's sort of fascinating in terms of who we are

1089
01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:31.599
as a species. But I mean it does raise something like,

1090
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:33.559
you know, doing the work that you do and exposing

1091
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:36.320
yourself in these ways and our curiosity about these kinds

1092
01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:38.760
of things, it can end up having a more negative

1093
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:41.000
impact than we anticipate or prepared for.

1094
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:47.199
Oh. Absolutely, How do you balance professionalism with the emotional

1095
01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:49.480
weight of these trials? This is something that I'm always

1096
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:51.840
super interested in hearing other people that work in this

1097
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:56.719
space navigate because it's so different for everyone, So you know,

1098
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:58.119
how do you navigate that.

1099
01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:02.480
This reminds me of the first time I met actually

1100
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:08.920
doctor Diana Barnes, because we both were at Emily's resentencing hearing.

1101
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:13.800
I was just reading a statement. She was giving testimony

1102
01:01:13.800 --> 01:01:18.280
and facing questions and cross examination questions. So I got

1103
01:01:18.280 --> 01:01:20.360
to watch her testimony and she got to listen to

1104
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.719
my statement, and then we were both just sort of

1105
01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:26.920
outside the courtroom in the hallway at the end of

1106
01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:29.239
the day, and we knew the decision at that point

1107
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:32.000
was the best possible outcome that could have been achieved.

1108
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.559
So Emily had originally been sentenced to life without the

1109
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:39.960
possibility of parole, and then thanks to really brilliant lawyering

1110
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:43.679
by Rachel Troutman, she achieves the resentencing hearing and is

1111
01:01:43.719 --> 01:01:46.639
given the minimum sentence for aggravated murder in front of

1112
01:01:46.639 --> 01:01:50.239
a different judge, a female judge, And at that point

1113
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:53.159
emily sentence goes from life without the possibility of parole

1114
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:57.360
to parole eligible after twenty years. And we're out in

1115
01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:00.440
the hallway, and this is before I've received any therapeutic

1116
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:05.000
treatment for work on these cases. And doctor Barnes, beloved

1117
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.679
just is weeping and she's so grateful for the outcome,

1118
01:02:09.719 --> 01:02:12.039
and she's just so emotionally present to herself in the

1119
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.639
moment and also so aware of the positive impact of

1120
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:19.800
the work that she's just done. And I'm holding her

1121
01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:22.239
and reponding and like this is the beginning of a

1122
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:25.320
last dipping friendship and mentorship for us. But I'm watching

1123
01:02:25.320 --> 01:02:30.039
myself and I'm completely numb. I'm feeling absolutely nothing standing there.

1124
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:32.280
And then I go back to my hotel room by

1125
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:37.000
myself and I'm having an adult beverage, and it's just

1126
01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:40.719
a sadness that's like an iceberg, because for me, it

1127
01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:45.000
actually made Emily's sentence real and now the reality that

1128
01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:47.800
at least you know that she's going to be that

1129
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:49.960
she mean, she's already spent, by the way, her entire

1130
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:53.800
twenties incarcerated. She's in you know, she's thirty now, so

1131
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:57.840
she's already spent this last her entire decade with no

1132
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:00.599
end in sight. And so for me, it just felt

1133
01:03:00.639 --> 01:03:04.679
like this intense, immovable kind of grief on her behalf,

1134
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:06.760
and that this just made her sentence even more real

1135
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:09.639
to me than it even had been previously, because the

1136
01:03:09.679 --> 01:03:12.320
sort of duration of life without parole is sort of

1137
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.719
a morphous and that was my first indication that HAPCA

1138
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:18.639
background in psychiatry would probably like an advantage.

1139
01:03:18.119 --> 01:03:19.079
To doing this work.

1140
01:03:19.599 --> 01:03:24.400
And it made me in a way envious of Diana's

1141
01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:27.360
access to her emotional life in real time, and it

1142
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:29.840
made me curious about what that would look like for

1143
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:32.880
me too, Like, Okay, I think that there's something about

1144
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:36.639
being able to just have that expression in real time

1145
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:40.199
that is clearly an asset to one's well being.

1146
01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:45.440
No, absolutely it is. What do you hope readers take

1147
01:03:45.480 --> 01:03:48.239
away from American and Fanticide One?

1148
01:03:48.480 --> 01:03:53.760
I hope the perception of Emily's case changes profoundly, and

1149
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:56.760
I hope that this creates a great deal of empathy

1150
01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:01.880
in her specifically and her family. Beyond that, I think

1151
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:07.039
Emily was extremely generous in sharing her story with me.

1152
01:04:07.719 --> 01:04:09.480
We spent three days together.

1153
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:13.119
We went more into the weeds than any prior research

1154
01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:16.400
has ever gone. My book is the first to actually

1155
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.840
talk about the experience of childbirth and relation to these cases,

1156
01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:22.920
because usually it's a more clinical kind of an interview

1157
01:04:22.920 --> 01:04:25.920
and that's just not included. But we did a semi

1158
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:29.679
structured interview and I let Emily direct us to where

1159
01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:31.800
we needed to go, and we spent three days together,

1160
01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:34.159
and she was willing to talk to me in that

1161
01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:36.480
way and share her story with me in that way.

1162
01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:41.079
This is after her conviction, because she's literally sitting in

1163
01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:44.920
her cell and watching similar cases on TV unfold. And

1164
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.079
Emily also cares a lot about prevention, and she shared

1165
01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:52.079
her story with me more to help raise awareness than

1166
01:04:52.119 --> 01:04:55.840
to help herself. She's an extremely generous person in those ways,

1167
01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:59.440
and she really wants to see more awareness around unperceived

1168
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:02.800
pregnancy in the hopes of prevention and also in the

1169
01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:05.440
hopes of just better understanding for women who aren't helped.

1170
01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:07.880
What do we do after the fact, what does justice

1171
01:05:07.920 --> 01:05:11.320
really look like? And so I think her story helps

1172
01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:14.719
have that kind of conversation. And I would hope that

1173
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:18.039
one readers see similar headlines in tabloids and they see

1174
01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:21.719
that monster mom stereotype popping up, that they just pause

1175
01:05:21.800 --> 01:05:24.400
for a second and just consider that that might not

1176
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:28.880
be the whole story. Usually these stories run before there's

1177
01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:33.239
even been a trial, with zero investigative journalism, and so

1178
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:36.639
no one has actually talked to the young woman involved

1179
01:05:36.679 --> 01:05:39.400
before they're publishing these stories or gotten any sense of

1180
01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:42.800
what her real experience was, and to just have more

1181
01:05:42.840 --> 01:05:47.119
a measure of skepticism and refrain from rushing to judgment

1182
01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:49.880
until there's better or more information available.

1183
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:55.159
Absolutely, I agree, and I hope people do have that

1184
01:05:55.199 --> 01:05:57.440
takeaway from your book. It was a takeaway that I had.

1185
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:03.679
It's I'm more cognizant of the realities of what some

1186
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:06.320
of these women could be experiencing. And I think that

1187
01:06:06.400 --> 01:06:11.199
people should also have that awareness, because I mean, we

1188
01:06:11.239 --> 01:06:13.519
see it all the time with any crime that it's

1189
01:06:13.719 --> 01:06:15.719
it's not always as cut and dry as people think.

1190
01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:19.519
And unfortunately, you know, the innocent until proven guilty thing

1191
01:06:19.599 --> 01:06:21.960
is not true in the court of public opinion. So

1192
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:23.880
I think people just need to take a little bit

1193
01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:29.639
of a pause and really take into consideration the extenuating

1194
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:33.800
circumstances that could have occurred in cases like this. It

1195
01:06:33.840 --> 01:06:37.159
has been wonderful talking to you. I really appreciate having

1196
01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:39.880
you on. Tell everyone where they can find your book.

1197
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:42.199
I will put it in the source notes below, but

1198
01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:44.119
you know, where can we find it? You know, as

1199
01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:46.559
you have any upcoming projects or research that you're working

1200
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:47.519
on that you want to share.

1201
01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:51.519
Oh goodness, you can find the book anywhere you most

1202
01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:54.880
like to get books. You could go directly to Rutgers

1203
01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:58.039
University Press. If you're not anti Amazon, you can do that.

1204
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:01.679
My local bookstores care, but it should be really available

1205
01:07:01.880 --> 01:07:05.960
wherever you like, to wherever you prefer. In that regard,

1206
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:09.199
and I am wrestling and debating with upcoming projects, I

1207
01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:12.880
would say that my different passions.

1208
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:13.519
Are competing with each other.

1209
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:15.199
Part of me is like I'm not writing another book.

1210
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:18.559
I'm gonna train for this longer running event or something

1211
01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:21.440
like that. But of course there are things that are

1212
01:07:21.480 --> 01:07:23.159
sort of on the horizon that are attempting to me.

1213
01:07:23.480 --> 01:07:26.679
I should be working on an academic article, but thanks

1214
01:07:26.719 --> 01:07:31.119
to our mutual friend Brian Santana, I'm certainly considering doing

1215
01:07:31.119 --> 01:07:33.199
something that's a little bit more in the true crime space.

1216
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:37.159
I think it's interesting to me to think about if

1217
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:40.159
I switch the priorities, because in this book, being a

1218
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:44.280
historian sociologist came first above being a storyteller, and I

1219
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:46.639
think I still have a lot of narrative storytelling qualities

1220
01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:49.559
to the writing, but my ethics and my priorities were

1221
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:51.880
aligned in that way, and it would be really interesting

1222
01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.119
to still bring that research skill set and prioritize the

1223
01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:58.760
storytelling piece too, So I'm flirting with the potential of

1224
01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:00.320
that kind of next product.

1225
01:08:00.960 --> 01:08:03.400
Well, that would be really cool to see. And I

1226
01:08:03.519 --> 01:08:06.559
very much look forward to your next work because this

1227
01:08:06.639 --> 01:08:10.880
one was wonderful to read. Really, as I said, really

1228
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:15.840
thought provoking to you guys listening. As I said, you

1229
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.479
can find Clara's book and the source notes below. I

1230
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:21.439
urge you to check it out, especially if you know

1231
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:25.960
you're willing to kind of broaden your horizons and take

1232
01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:29.880
a look at how your preconceived notions lead you to

1233
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:33.319
look at cases that you hear and read about. But

1234
01:08:33.600 --> 01:08:36.520
as always, thank you so much for listening, and I

1235
01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:38.960
will see you in the next chapter of the Book

1236
01:08:38.960 --> 01:08:43.960
of the Dead. Bye, guys. Another page closed. But the

1237
01:08:44.039 --> 01:08:48.359
story isn't over for the families left behind. The pain

1238
01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:52.159
doesn't end when the headline's fade. And for the victims,

1239
01:08:52.399 --> 01:08:56.439
we owe them more than silence for our on solved cases.

1240
01:08:57.039 --> 01:08:59.760
If you have any information, please reach out to local

1241
01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:03.119
authorities or visit our show notes for links and resources.

1242
01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:10.479
Someone out there knows something, maybe it's you. Thank you

1243
01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:13.199
for listening to the Book of the Dead. If this

1244
01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:16.199
story moved or spoke to you in some way, talk

1245
01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:21.640
about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until next time,

1246
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:27.760
I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant.

1247
01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:31.800
And remember the dead may be gone, but their stories

1248
01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:33.239
will not be forgotten.
Clara S Lewis Profile Photo
Clara S Lewis

PhD

Clara S Lewis teaches at Dartmouth College and serves as an expert witness on neonaticide cases. She writes at the intersection of sociology, law, and American history, with publications in journals including Pediatrics and Critical Criminology. She is also Mars and Ivy’s mom.