April 6, 2026

Chapter 138: Dog O' War-Diane Whipple and The Aryan Brotherhood w/ Aphrodite Jones

Chapter 138: Dog O' War-Diane Whipple and The Aryan Brotherhood w/ Aphrodite Jones
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On January 26, 2001, 33-year-old Diane Whipple returned to her apartment building in San Francisconever knowing she was walking into a deadly encounter. Just outside her door, she was brutally attacked by two massive Presa Canario dogs owned by her neighbors, Robert Noel and Marjorie Knoller.

As the attack unfolded, Knoller stood by, and Diane suffered catastrophic injuries that would ultimately take her life.What followed was a case that shocked the nation. Public outrage quickly grew, with many demanding accountability for the owners behind the dogs. But as investigators dug deeper, the story took an unexpected and disturbing turn revealing ties to the Aryan Brotherhood and raising questions no one saw coming.

Today, I’m joined by author Aphrodite Jones, whose book Dog O’ War takes a deep dive into this case uncovering a story that is truly stranger than fiction.

Get Dog O' War here

Listen To Levi's Eyes-An Interview with Aphrodite Jones here

Listen to Chapter 78: Teens That Kill and Rod Ferrell Revisted w/ Aphrodite Jones Here




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If you have a case suggestion, or want attention brought to a loved one's case, email me at bookofthedeadpod@gmail.com with Case Suggestion in the subject line.

Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant.

WEBVTT

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Every story has a beginning, but not everyone has an ending.

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In the shadows of headlines and buried police reports lay

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the voices of the missing, the murdered, and the forgotten,

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waiting to be heard and have their stories told. This

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is The Book of the Dead, a true crime podcast

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where we remember forgotten victims of heinous crimes, reopen cold cases,

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re visit haunting disappearances, and uncover the truths buried beneath

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the years of silence. I'm your host, Courtney Liso, and

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every week we turn to another chapter, one victim, one mystery,

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one step closer to justice. Brought to you by Darkast

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Network INDEP Podcasts with the Twist. Hello, Hello, Welcome to

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the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. On

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January twenty sixth, two thousand and one, thirty three year

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old Diane Whipple returned home to her apartment at twenty

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three ninety eight Pacific Avenue in San Francisco. As she

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attempted to enter her apartment, she was a viciously attacked

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by two prese To carnarios owned by her neighbors, Robert

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Noel and Marjorie Noler. As Marjorie looked on, Diane was mauled,

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ultimately succumbing to her injuries, and what would follow would

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be a national outcry as the public demanded Noel and

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Noler be held responsible for the actions of their monstrous dogs.

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But the investigations to bring them up on charges would

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uncover a connection to the Aryan Brotherhood that no one

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could have ever expected. Back with me today to discuss

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this case and the subject of her latest book, Daga

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War is Aphrodite Chilnes, who took a deep dive into

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the story that is quite literally stranger than fiction. Alfredit,

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it is so good to have you back. I'm very excited.

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Thank you for having me back. I love this show.

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Oh, thank you so much. So let's just start from

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the beginning. Tell me about this case. Besides the fact

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that it ended up being so bizarre, what was it

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that made you want to write about it?

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So I had the opportunity to go sit in the courtroom,

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and this case was so big in San Francisco that

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they had to change venue down to Los Angeles, where

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I happened to be living at the time. So knowing

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that I had that opportunity, I'm like, I'm getting that courtroom.

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I got to see what's going on with this Because

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at that point, these two lawyers had already gone on

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Good Morning America and told Elizabeth Bargas, who's the anchor

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at the time, that they held no responsibility for what

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happened to their neighbor. That Marjorie Noah actually said she

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should have just closed the door. I would have I'm quoting. Now,

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this is a woman who watched and witnessed her two

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dogs attack, not just Diane Whipple what happened, the mauling

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and the murder, but attack forty other instances of attacks

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throughout the city of San Francisco, and she's covering it up,

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which is.

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Just so insane to me. Because these dogs were They

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were warned that these dogs were so vicious, So why

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do you think they ignored those warnings?

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Okay, so we have to go back right into the story.

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The dog is called Presa Canario. It's an unknown breed.

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It's not recognized by the American Caundra Club. To give

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you an example still to this day. The reason it's

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press of Canario. It comes from the Canary Islands. It

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was used in Spain to take bulls down in bull rains.

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All Right. It is a size of a mastiff with

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the power of a pitbull doubled. Okay, Now there are

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people who have pres canarios, you know, that are fine,

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and I met one because I didn't want to be

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afraid of all these dogs. Okay, it's not the dog's fault.

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Let me make it clear that I am not blaming

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these dogs. This has nothing to do with the dogs.

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It has to do with the owners. Unfortunately, the owners

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of these dogs were the leaders of the area and

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Brotherhood prison game, and these dogs were being raised for

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their illicit activities so that their associates on the outside

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could guard and use the dogs to guard meth labs,

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pop farms, heroin labs. So this is not a typical scenario.

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On any level. You so I'm saying, I mean you

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read it.

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Right, Yeah, I mean, these it definitely wasn't a scenario.

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These dogs weren't bread just to be you know, pets.

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They were definitely from the beginning bred to be attack

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dogs and kill. That's what they were bred for, which

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is insane because then they were allowed to be in

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an apartment. You know, they pegged them into an apartment.

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So how does that happen?

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Right? So, how that happened? Is understand the way these

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dogs were bred. They were mishandled. They the Aran Brotherhood

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shot collar in Pelican Bay Prison, Paul Schneider started this

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operation with his cellmate. What they wanted to do is

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raise the fiercest, most dangerous dogs ever to sell and

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make a lot of money through all of their associates

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who have all their various sex trafficking drug trafficking activities.

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The person who wound up taking these dogs for Paul

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Schneider was a churchwoman who lived up in the upper

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ends of California near Oregon, where it's hot farm Heaven,

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where it's very rural. In where she lived in it

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is called the Emerald Triangle. And so she.

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Got pajoled into visiting Paul Schneider because he says, I've

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never seen a woman in twenty years, blah blah blah.

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Here's a woman.

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She's overweight, she's alone, she's got a daughter, but she's

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been loved by her husband. So she goes and visits Schneider,

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who's like a Hannibal lecter, and Schneider convinces her over time.

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It takes months writing back and forth, complimenting her, sending

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her stuff. Okay, I'll take the dogs. I'll take the dogs.

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She takes them. They get delivered from the airport Canada.

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They were imported. When she has the dogs, the guy

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at the airport says, you have got Kujo in the

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cage here?

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Do you know that?

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She's I don't even Woo's Kujo.

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She doesn't know what the guy's talking about.

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But what she does know is the whole ride home

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and it's far from the airport for her to get

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to her farm. These dog dogs are batting down their cages.

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They're wildly crazy. Now she gets them to her farm

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and ultimately she changes them to the trees because you

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can't pull them in pens because they're gnawing and eating

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through the pants and they're still puppies. So that's where

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that started.

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It's crazy to me that he, I mean, Paul Schneider,

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of course, is you know, a leader in the Arian Brotherhood,

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and I want to come back to the Aran Brotherhood

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aspect of it. She was afraid of these dogs, but

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she didn't want to give them up. So kind of

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explain to those who aren't familiar with that story, how

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did Noel and Nola come to get these dogs? Because

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she was scared of them, you know, they were so strong.

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But they were her dogs.

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So I'm going to just use her first name, Janet.

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This is the church woman because when I met her

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for this story, she was in witness protection over this.

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This is dangerous stuff there. Your brotherhood has fingers on

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the outside. That's how Diane Whipple while I'm getting killed.

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That's how that went. And there's many other ways that

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things go wrong with dealing with Arion brotherods. But Janet

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had the dogs, and then they started eating her live stock,

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They ate her chickens, then they killed her sheep, and

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at one point they killed her daughter's cat, and that's

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when her daughter said, Mom, I don't want these dogs anymore.

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Janet didn't want to give them up because she felt

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motherly toward them. They had been puppies and they were

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now older, and the female had puppies. So she has

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little puppies plus the two adult dogs, and now they're

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all growing up, and she even though they're.

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Doing all this horrible stuff. We all have a.

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Tendency to overlook things we don't want to see. Now

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this is severe, clearly. I mean, I don't know how

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you can overlook a dog eating your animals.

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But I'm not in that woman's shoes, you know what

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I'm saying.

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I don't know, except to say she felt that these

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were her babies. She didn't want them to be taken

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and mishandled. She didn't understand that she was already mishandling

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them like this was not the right person to be

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dealing with this type of dog at all.

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So what happened.

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Paul Schneider does not like the reports that Janet is

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writing in on the dogs. She doesn't have enough money,

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she can't buy the expensive dog food. She can't this,

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she can't that they're breaking out of their cages, they're

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ruining her farm. Whatever. So he decides he's going to

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call his lawyers, Marjorie Dollar Noel. He's going to get

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them to go up to Hayfork and get those dogs

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in their control and get them out of Janet's hands.

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And those two lawyers go up to Hayfork, California, and

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they threatened Janet, They say, will take your farm. You

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These dogs do not.

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Belong to you. They belonged to Paul Schneider.

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And in order to take them into the city legally,

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they felt they needed to get a veterinarian to just

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give an okay, oh, the veterinarian doctor Donald Martin, and

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that letter went into evidence, writes a letter saying these

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dogs are not fit to be around humans, no less

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being brought into the city of San Francisco. So they

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understood the danger from the veterinarian when they took those dogs,

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and they didn't care, and they brought them to their

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little apartment in ritzy Pacific Heights. Now do you understand

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the setting there? Pacific Heights is billionaire's row. That's where

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the giddies live, okay, among other billionaires. This is a

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very high end, swanky neighborhood part of San Francisco. And

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who in their right mind would think that you're spending

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all this money to live in a nice.

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Apartment that next door to you are.

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Two monstrous creatures that aren't supposed to be in a

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city no less than the apartment.

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The apartment building had rules. You weren't even allowed to.

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Have a dog that size.

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These lawyers were breaking every rule. They didn't care.

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Why do you think they were so dismissive of these

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rules and regulations about having the dogs in the apartment.

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Why they were so dismissive of the warning that the

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veterinarian gave them, Like, was it this weird, bizarre connection

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they had with Paul Schneider, because that was something else

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entirely their arrangement with him.

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What was it?

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Do you think? So?

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I think these two lawyers were spurious lawsuit lawyers, meaning

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filing lawsuits for any reason at all and threatening and

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bullying everyone around them. So to give an example, and

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I'd fit in the book, it was a moment where

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a plumber came into the apartment to fix the pipe,

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and he was a German and he had a German accent,

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and they felt that he was putting the accent on

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deliberately to insult them. And they were insulted by this accent,

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and they wanted damages, and they sued and got money

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from the management of the apartment building. So you know,

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if you think about that, understand that people hear word

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of that all throughout the building. Everybody knows here's two

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crazy lawyers. They're willing to sue if you seized in

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the wrong direction. All right, So I'm not going to

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say anything about this dog. And what they did initially

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is the dogs looked very similar. So that bane, the

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male dog bane meaning destruction and death, the bane of

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my existence.

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All the dogs, many of the dogs either had goddess.

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Names or they had names like Fury and Baane and

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just you know, fears and frightening names. So the Noel

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El and Nola, the lawyers would take one dog out

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and come back and then the other dog out seeking

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around in the beginning, so that people thought it was

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just one dog. Now ultimately they in here. Why didn't

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why did they do it? Why didn't they listen to

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the bet? Why didn't they listened to the rule? Was

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the apartment? Because they were better than everyone else, because

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they're lawyers, and they consume you till the cows come home,

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and therefore you're going to do they want to do.

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That's who they were.

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Yeah, it was a very clear reading that that that

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was the kind of attitude they had. It was very egotistical,

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very narcissistic, especially Robert Noel. You describe him as evil,

227
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and you mentioned in the book that a lot of

228
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people connected to the case essentially agreed with that sentiment.

229
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Was it just the fact that he would he was

230
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so willing to just sue anyone for looking in the

231
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wrong direction or was there something like inherently about him

232
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that made him seem so evil.

233
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Yeah, it's hard to exactly put my finger on it,

234
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.519
although clearly you're bringing animals that have killed livestock into

235
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your apartment obviously, and you have no reork for human

236
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life because this is what happened. Moreover, once Diane Luppl

237
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was killed, think about this with me.

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Think about this.

239
00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:55.039
Once Diane Ruple was killed on the same day, Robert

240
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Noel writes a letter went into evidence to Paul Schneider,

241
00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:01.759
and this is what he says. Bane is dead, as

242
00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.279
is one of our neighbors. Okay, didn't care what her

243
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.600
name was, didn't care anything about her, didn't care that

244
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she was killed. What he cared about was now I

245
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need to save Hara, because how dare they take Bain away?

246
00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.840
Let me save Hara. And the idea that two people

247
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who know their dogs have caused all this havoc throughout

248
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the city of San Francisco and now had killed, murdered

249
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.039
their next door neighbor want to save the female dog.

250
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.799
When Marjorie Nuller was there for the attack and admitted

251
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.840
that Hara took hold of Dinerple's pants and in her mind.

252
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That was okay, Bain's at Diane's throat and Harrah's at

253
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.000
the pants. Meanwhile, both dogs stripped Diane Whipple completely naked.

254
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I mean she was a slaughtered lamp horrifying, mortifying scene.

255
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And they both saw that. They both saw that. Marjorie

256
00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.399
saw the actual attack and was there, and Robert Doll

257
00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:00.679
came short thereafter and saw a hallway cover and bloods

258
00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:04.399
Marjorie and every big smear of blood. I mean, what

259
00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:07.559
in the world would make you think you want to

260
00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:12.879
keep this animal that has killed somebody and you don't

261
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.480
care that your next door neighbor was killed.

262
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And he was.

263
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.440
Asked by Jim Hammer the DA and I watched the

264
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questioning at the trial.

265
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You didn't care about this timorous Oh who?

266
00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.120
He said, You wrote a letter to from Paul Schneider

267
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:33.399
saying that a timorous mousey blonde almost had a heart attack,

268
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.840
almost had a coronary when she saw band enter the elevator,

269
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.399
and you were proud of that. And Robert noel Shuk

270
00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:42.840
has said yeah, and he said and who was that blonde?

271
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And he said Diane Lovell Well. So now after the fact, this.

272
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.120
Woman has been murdered, the whole country is up in arms,

273
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the city is up in arms. I mean, anyone who's

274
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watching national news, it was on National News at that time,

275
00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.279
is saying, what is wrong with these people?

276
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How could you.

277
00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:10.720
Possibly have zero remorse, regret, nothing. You just care about

278
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:14.159
your dog. You don't care that your next door neighbor

279
00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.840
was murdered by their animals. It was unware to think

280
00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.759
about this. Good Morning America like the Today's show back

281
00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.159
in two thousand and one, same thing. Millions of people

282
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.639
watched this, and it also went on twenty twenty later

283
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:31.120
that night, and people were seeing, you know, comments from

284
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.720
the veterinarian who're saying I told them no, no, no, okay,

285
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:39.840
comments from the police, comments from what were they thinking, Well,

286
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:43.120
obviously they're not thinking now. Marjorie Noler should never have

287
00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:46.279
been left alone with those dogs. She never had a dog,

288
00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.799
she'd not handle dogs. She noel who weighed twice her weight,

289
00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.080
couldn't help those dogs.

290
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:51.399
Back.

291
00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:53.840
He leaves her alone with the dogs and thinks it's

292
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.240
okay that she can take the dogs out off leash

293
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:00.000
in the hallway so they can go do their business

294
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:02.360
up on the roof, which is also creepy. But that's

295
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:07.640
what was going on. I mean, so it's many things.

296
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If to answer your question. Another thing I would say

297
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.519
made me feel this way is when I would meet

298
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.480
with him, and I met with him quite often in prison,

299
00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.279
and then I did a lot of interviews over the

300
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:20.319
phone as well. He had tendency to talk in circles.

301
00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:23.279
And what I've noticed in time over my career dealing

302
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:29.000
with evil people, one of the things like like psycho killers.

303
00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:31.119
And I'm not saying Noel was a psycho killer. I'm

304
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:32.640
just saying he's evil. But one of the things I

305
00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:37.200
noticed is in common is they tend to talk in circles,

306
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:40.119
so that by the time you finished listening to whatever

307
00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:41.759
they've said, you don't even know what they've said because

308
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:42.519
they haven't said anything.

309
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:46.319
And that was very evident even reading the book and

310
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.400
quotes from him. It was a lot of backtracking and

311
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:54.240
going back and forth and to confuse people. And it

312
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:58.839
was very clear to me reading that. And Marjorie was

313
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.079
very similar. When the police had asked her about the

314
00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:03.880
control of the dog, she said, well, I had control

315
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.079
of the dog, but the dog got to Diane. She goes, well, yeah,

316
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.759
but I still had control of the dog, and like going, well,

317
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.880
maybe I didn't have control of the dog in that moment,

318
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:14.680
but I had control of the dog. It was. It

319
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:16.680
was a lot of back and forth and a lot

320
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:19.359
of talking in circles from the bulk of them.

321
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:20.599
From both of them exactly.

322
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.039
And the thing is, you can almost understand if you

323
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.319
know many people who have had dogs and the dog

324
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.200
bite someone, and any why I say, doh, wh dog

325
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:28.519
is good?

326
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:29.279
My dog is good.

327
00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:34.119
There were forty incidents Courtney, forty incidents also about the

328
00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.680
city of San Francisco. In one of them, Robert Nobell's

329
00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:42.480
finger was bitten off, severed completely by Baine that Marjorie

330
00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.079
had to take him to the hospital and I had

331
00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:45.640
to have it reattached to It was at the hospital

332
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.599
for four days. I mean, what more do you need

333
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.519
to know about these dogs to understand that they are

334
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.279
lethal creatures? And yet you're all good with it. Not

335
00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:59.440
our fault, not our responsibility, responsibility.

336
00:18:59.559 --> 00:18:59.680
No.

337
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.440
I'll never forget her saying that that I just couldn't

338
00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:07.319
believe it. Do you have any responsibility responsibility? No? And

339
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.200
then she says, I would have just closed the door.

340
00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:15.000
I would have just gone to my apartment. Then when

341
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.680
the attack happened after Diane Whipple is still alive on

342
00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.599
the floor, bleeding and completely nude, trying to crawl to

343
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.920
her doorframe to get to safety. Arsie Knowler, after she

344
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:31.920
puts her dogs in her apartment, walks right over Diane

345
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:36.480
Whipple to get her keys, never calls nine one one.

346
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.079
The other neighbor called nine one one.

347
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:41.880
I mean, think about that for a minute.

348
00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:45.839
That was astounding to me because I obviously this was not,

349
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.119
you know, a bite, This was a vicious mauling. There's

350
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:55.160
blood everywhere. I don't understand, and I don't know if

351
00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:01.319
she's ever made mention of why she just had such

352
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:05.240
a disregard for what was happening. Can't wrap my brain

353
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:08.240
around that she has she ever made mention of why

354
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:09.799
she just didn't care.

355
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:13.559
No, I did meet her. I went to see her

356
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.920
in jail, and she wasn't expecting me. It was one

357
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.359
of these things where I just happened to be able

358
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:20.519
to pop up in there and she thought I was

359
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.640
her mother. Why, but she was not expecting me, And

360
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.200
so I spoke to her for a few minutes and

361
00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:28.279
she just kind of they're making me into a villain.

362
00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:29.359
I'm not a villain.

363
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:33.599
It was all about her narcissism, and again they still

364
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.839
wanted to save hera It didn't matter that Hara was

365
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:40.119
part of a lethal dog attack. They fought. They went

366
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:42.920
to the Vicious and Dangerous Dog hearing that was held

367
00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.960
by Animal Care and Control. Those forty incidents that happened

368
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:50.319
all throughout San Francisco. A huge number of those people

369
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.880
testified at that Vicious and Dangerous Dog hearing, and every

370
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:57.440
one of them, Noel and Nuler stood up and said,

371
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.400
you're lying, you're lying, You're lying. It never happened. It

372
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.640
never happened. I mean, these people were rabbit they were

373
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.000
like wild dogs themselves.

374
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.039
It's bizarre that there's a lot of things about them

375
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.480
that's very bizarre. And the biggest thing for me that

376
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:17.079
was so bizarre was their relationship with Paul Schneider. So

377
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.920
obviously Paul Schneider is leader of the Aryan Brotherhood. And

378
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:22.920
for those that don't know, because I think there's like

379
00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:25.960
a lot of misconceptions. People know the abstract, but for

380
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.759
those that don't know, like what is the Aryan Brotherhood?

381
00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:32.480
So the Aryan Brotherhood is a prison gang and it

382
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.240
started the nineteen sixties. You have to understand that prisons

383
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.599
on their own, prisoners decide that they want to separate.

384
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:43.759
They want to be segregated. Okay, so whites or whites,

385
00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:45.720
blacks with blacks, Latinos with Latinas.

386
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.160
It's just that way. So there are names for these gangs.

387
00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:53.720
Aaron Brotherhood is the white Gorilla I forget now, something

388
00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:59.000
is the Black na. Mexican Mafia is a name for Latino.

389
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:01.079
I mean there are more names. Now, there are more

390
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.000
gangs than that, But I'm just giving you the.

391
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.519
Idea that they're already segregated.

392
00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.000
But here's the thing. Airing Brotherhood, which does have the

393
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.640
white supremacy ideology, and they have the Nazi symbols and

394
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.799
the skin heads, and they have all of that that

395
00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.440
you think of with white supremacy. They do all that.

396
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.000
But what's more important to them, because they're a prison gang,

397
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:27.960
is power and control and how do they get that

398
00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:33.400
through money? So their operation they are a criminal enterprise.

399
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.119
They are in Brotherhood. Yeah, they're all about white supremacy too,

400
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.480
but let's first perverse and foremost make sure we control

401
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.039
everybody else in the prison and anywhere we can. So

402
00:22:43.119 --> 00:22:48.599
what they do is sex, trafficking, drug trafficking. That's why

403
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.119
these dogs are going to be sold to their associates,

404
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:54.160
for the platforms, for the nest labs, for the Heroin labs.

405
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:58.519
This is their business. And that's what Schnyder wanted to do.

406
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.799
Is he's buying the dogs twove hundred dollars, but the

407
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.359
settling between two and three thousand dollars. And he was

408
00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:08.480
ready red hot read his operation Dog of War, that

409
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.400
was the name of it. And so you have to

410
00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:16.839
understand the Aryan Brotherhood. When this happened and the murder

411
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.559
went down, Paul Schneider agreed to do an interview with

412
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.839
Rolling Stone Magazine. And because he did that and he

413
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.519
was quoted in there, the Aryan Brotherhood went against him.

414
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.440
And now because he outed the Aryan Brotherhood, they felt,

415
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.000
even though he didn't really that the authorities found all

416
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.440
this once the investigation got going. But because he went public,

417
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:40.640
they had to take him out of that prison and

418
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.440
offer him protection within prison and take him out.

419
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.640
Of the state of California so that he could because

420
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.039
there was a hit on him.

421
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.400
Because Arian Brotherhood is blooded and blood out, so you

422
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:53.480
have to kill someone to get in it, and then

423
00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.119
you'll be killed if you get out, So it's not

424
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:57.880
a kind of people you want to hang around with,

425
00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:59.480
except Marjorie involved it.

426
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.359
And how did they get connected with Paul because they

427
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.680
have a twisted relationship and there's like a whole another

428
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.640
episode we could do just talking about their weird relationship

429
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.079
with Paul Schneider. It's a psychologist dream, honestly.

430
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.039
It's a psychotic relationship where they thought that he was

431
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.160
their son because they really wanted him to be their

432
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.839
husband and be a threesome and thought they were going

433
00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:27.400
to get him out of the lethal Pelican they supermax

434
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:32.000
fences and have him home with them forever in some

435
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:39.240
medieval fantasy, bizarre, twisted, crazy shit I can't even I get.

436
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:41.960
It's honestly one of the craziest things to read about.

437
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.960
And I think the whole time I was reading that

438
00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:47.359
was that especially. I mean, the whole story is like,

439
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:49.759
what is happening like? And oh my god, and then

440
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.599
you get to that and it's what is happening like it?

441
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.680
And it's real life, which is so bizarre.

442
00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.200
I mean, you actually have to look at the pictures

443
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:01.559
and the drawings to even believe that this went on.

444
00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.839
Right it If I didn't know about her, I would

445
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.279
think it was made up, like because it just it

446
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.480
doesn't seem real. And that was there's so much of

447
00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.680
this that doesn't seem real. I mean, how did they

448
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:19.559
come to know him?

449
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.480
So these are people. Back up a little bit.

450
00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:27.119
Robert Noel was a high powered attorney at one time,

451
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.200
not when it lived in San Francisco, but prior to

452
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.119
that worked for the government. YadA YadA, And they got married.

453
00:25:34.759 --> 00:25:38.960
Second marriage, Martak Knowler became a lawyer and she was

454
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:43.960
his prize. And they at that time were hanging around

455
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.200
in the high society of San Francisco. So there's a

456
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.480
picture of them in the book in Black Tie. They're

457
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.720
going to the Getty's mansion to fundraisers. There, fundraisers at

458
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:55.880
the Opera House, all that kind of stuff. They're part

459
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.519
of it. But then as they start getting weirder and

460
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:04.200
weirder and going darker and darker, they're losing clients and

461
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.240
ultimately they wound up. It is long before the Dogs.

462
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:13.880
They wound up representing an inmate and a prison guard

463
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.880
from Pelican Bay and the Long Trials. They were in

464
00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:21.359
upp in Preston City, where Pelican Bay was one of

465
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.359
the witnesses was Paul Schneider because the Rian Brotherhood was

466
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.160
involved in that particular court case.

467
00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.359
And when they saw him.

468
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.319
And he's all brawn and the thirty seven years old

469
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:37.240
thirty six years old, you know, they're kind of frumpy people.

470
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:40.400
Even though she thinks she's this hot sexy things, she's

471
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:43.160
anything but that. I mean, it's hilarious. You see that

472
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.680
picture of her and the cape. I mean really, it's

473
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:50.079
just it just makes you just I can't even stand it.

474
00:26:50.359 --> 00:26:55.079
It's like what But yeah, So they met him there

475
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.319
and as Robert Nol like to tell me, he's a

476
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.119
stand up guy. And all I could think is, do

477
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:01.279
you want to know about evil? You're talking to me

478
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.880
about a man who has three life sentences in prison.

479
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:08.599
He's in the Shoe, which is the secure housing unit

480
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.000
of the prison. I went there. You're in no man's land,

481
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.519
you're behind locks and locks and gates, and then there's

482
00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:18.359
a whole field that you're walking past that's like that

483
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.119
black astro tar that has you know, you ever seen

484
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.000
where it has seems like it has silver shiny diamonds

485
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.759
in it, you know I'm talking about. You're walking through that.

486
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.680
It's so removed from any possibility of ever getting out

487
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.000
of there. That that's where Schneider is, okay, and they

488
00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:42.640
know it. But that's okay because he's a stand up guy. No,

489
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.400
he tried to stab and did stab his attorney in a.

490
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:50.640
Court appearance prior to meeting them.

491
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.759
He's hiding ships up, his legs up because I mean,

492
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:59.000
the guy's a monster. But no, he's a stand up

493
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:03.720
guy and just decided he was fabulous. He's what's so brilliant?

494
00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:08.640
La la la, and they fell in love with him.

495
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:13.680
It's bizarre to me, it's it's bizarre. How did the

496
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:17.119
police realize the connection to the area brotherhood and how

497
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.759
the dogs were being or why the dogs were being bried?

498
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:22.640
Like what what made them realize that this was far

499
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.160
bigger than what they imagined.

500
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.200
Okay, so initially obviously nobody knew, but the fact that

501
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.640
the dog owners were taking no responsibility and that they

502
00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:36.279
were fighting to keep Hara alive created a huge mess.

503
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:37.960
Also in San Francisco, because there's a lot of dog

504
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:38.960
people in San Francisco.

505
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:42.920
So literally, I met a lawyer who represented Harrah. I

506
00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:44.880
didn't put that in the book, but I did. It

507
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.279
was Sweetheart in Berkeley, and you know Berkeley is so liberal.

508
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:49.759
He was Hara's lawyer.

509
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:52.079
I'm like Hara as a lawyer, I gotta eat This

510
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.759
guy was amazing to me. It was a creepy little

511
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.799
office he had. I guess that's why when you represent

512
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.720
dogs that can't really pay very much. But the reason

513
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.079
I mentioned that is there are a lot of people

514
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:03.240
who wanted Harra saved.

515
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.119
This guy offered his services as a lawyer for Harah.

516
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.279
So I mean, there's a craziness in San Francisco all

517
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:14.480
about this situation, all about these people. And then at

518
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:18.880
the same time, while that's all happening, they're sitting there

519
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:24.519
pointing figures at everybody else, including Diane Whipple, and saying

520
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:27.759
she could have brought the attack upon herself that she

521
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.599
may have been wearing. They wanted the DA to know,

522
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.119
you need to go into her medicine cabinet and find

523
00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.119
out what story she was on, what perfume she used,

524
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:39.400
because that's what could have attracted our dogs. When that

525
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:43.200
letter was sent to DA Terrence Helenan, who was the

526
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.160
DA of San Francisco at the time, that was before

527
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:48.640
the whole thing blew up all over the media. But

528
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.559
Robert Noel sent that letter also to the media. So

529
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.559
now there's all this information out there about this what's

530
00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:00.839
the story with these dogs? And then slowly, surely the

531
00:30:01.039 --> 00:30:05.359
San Francisco Police, along with the California Apartment of Corrections investigators,

532
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.359
along with the raw musket, all of them get together

533
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:13.440
and they are realizing that these dogs belong to Paul Schneider,

534
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:17.640
the Are and Brotherhood member and his cellmate. And therefore,

535
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.240
all the legal mail that was confidential between Noel Knoler

536
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.839
and Schneider that couldn't be opened, the judge ordered to

537
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.039
be unsealed. And when everything was unsealed, there were all

538
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:32.440
these letters. There was all this crazy art. There was

539
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:37.440
this whole mystical family of three triad crazy insanity. I

540
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.400
mean this drawings I have on my website. If anybody

541
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.559
reads the book, you'll get to a place where I'll

542
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:46.079
send you there a plus material. One of the drawings

543
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.200
of Marjorie. It's not it's a vixen, it's not her,

544
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.799
but it's this woman. You got to check it out

545
00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:56.960
on this on my site, bonus material. She's bent over

546
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.599
and the guy that would be Schneider has an acts

547
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.240
pointing at her butt.

548
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:03.720
Okay, I mean.

549
00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:07.559
This is the craziest story I have ever written or

550
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.400
been involved with it. And I've been doing this thirty

551
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:13.079
plus years, Okay, and I see all kinds of crazy,

552
00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:18.240
trust me, I know crazy. This is beyond the crazy.

553
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.119
It's insanity. I mean, there's no other way to describe it.

554
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.599
As crazy as the case was that, I mean, the

555
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.079
trial ended up breaking legal grad regarding owner responsibility. Like

556
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:31.799
what was that impact like for future cases of dog attacks?

557
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.359
So, you know, it's very interesting that now, right now,

558
00:31:35.400 --> 00:31:39.039
today we are seeing the first cases of parents being

559
00:31:39.079 --> 00:31:42.519
held responsible, criminally responsible for the actions of their child

560
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:45.000
when a child goes in and SHOT's schoolhouse up.

561
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:45.720
Now.

562
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:47.920
I mean it's not often and it's not going to

563
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.880
be every minute, but it's starting, right This case was

564
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:56.039
the start, the first that then created the president and

565
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.240
Governor Ray Davis was the governor of California at the time,

566
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.400
closed the loophole in the law and made it so

567
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.079
that anyone who owns a dog that commits the malling

568
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:08.920
can be held criminally.

569
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.680
Responsible for the actions of their dogs.

570
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.599
So that was a huge thing that came out of

571
00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:17.039
this because that would have never happened if not for

572
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.200
this situation. And you know, I'm always on top of

573
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.880
what's going on in the news. Just look, you see

574
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.119
these schoolhouse shootings. For all these years I've been writing

575
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.119
about kids with teens with murder and it's horrifying, and

576
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.720
it's like, doesn't anybody hold the parents account? And it

577
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.640
started to happen. So that was a very important thing

578
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.599
that came out of this. And the other important thing

579
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.160
that came out of this was that Sharon Smith, Diane's

580
00:32:41.319 --> 00:32:44.839
gay partner, wasn't able to sue for a wrongful death

581
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.200
against Nola and Noler because there was no precedent for

582
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:52.599
that and gay couples had no RSIs before gay marriage

583
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:56.279
was legalized. So that same year, in two thousand and one,

584
00:32:56.319 --> 00:32:58.759
the summer two thousand and one that Diane was killed,

585
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:03.400
legislation was passed allowing a partner to sue for wrongful death.

586
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:08.759
So that became the precursor then to gay marriage being blessed.

587
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.920
I believe it was first blessed in San Francisco, or

588
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.920
I think it was Vermont, San Francisco, Massachusetts, and San

589
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.039
Francisco was one of the first places I know, California was.

590
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.680
So it was a very important, very important case in

591
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.400
that regard. And I say that because also because it

592
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:25.359
makes me think of Diane and the fact that as

593
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.599
a slaughtered lamb, that her death doesn't go unnoticed, that

594
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:32.519
her death actually made an impact. And yes, I am

595
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.480
sure many people have been saved from vicious dogs because

596
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:39.200
there is a law now that says you're going to

597
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:40.200
pay criminally.

598
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:45.640
Absolutely, and I absolutely think that's true. And speaking of

599
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:49.480
Marjorie being held criminally responsible, that was actually overturned and

600
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.720
then reinstated. So why and she was actually just her

601
00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:56.319
appeal was just denied again in the last month.

602
00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.799
Right, let me set the scene for that. Okay, I'm

603
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.799
not the trial in Los Angeles. The jury comes back.

604
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:05.440
First of all, the prosecutor wasn't even going to charge

605
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.320
them with second degree murder. Okay, that wasn't even a

606
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.559
thought because if you charge too high you can lose

607
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.760
the case. It was the grand jury who asked the prosecution, can.

608
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:20.679
We charge her with second degree murder?

609
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:21.760
Right?

610
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.039
So, and then there was charge of the lesson included,

611
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:27.199
which was Mansler, so that if they didn't find that

612
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:31.800
it met that threshold. So one of the monumental things

613
00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.400
that happened with this case, it actually solidified the definition

614
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.400
of second degree murder, which is what is it? Do

615
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:39.719
you know?

616
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.599
Because people aren't sure, do you know? Yeah?

617
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.119
So second murder is when you're knowingly doing something that

618
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:51.039
can cause the death of somebody. So like owning a

619
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:54.159
vicious dog without any sort of proper training.

620
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.000
You know, well, owning the.

621
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.119
Dog is You're good.

622
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:02.039
Yeah, it's a vicious it's bifically, you know, within those

623
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.320
specific criteria.

624
00:35:04.039 --> 00:35:04.679
It has to have.

625
00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:09.599
So the example, the prostrity in court was if you

626
00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:12.239
have a machine gun and you're shooting it into a

627
00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:15.960
school bus or a bus or a load of people, you know,

628
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.159
the chance of you causing death harm to human life

629
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:22.519
is there.

630
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:24.480
Therefore it's secondary murder.

631
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.360
If you're driving a car drunk and you've already had

632
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.800
numerous d UIs, you know that this You now have

633
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:35.079
a three ton vehicle metal that's a weapon while with

634
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.519
your behind the wheel, so that you know, if you

635
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:41.159
kill somebody and you are drunk and you've had priors,

636
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:42.320
you're going to go away.

637
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.119
I have a friend that has happened to.

638
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:50.119
For fifteen years for secondary murder, longer than Robert Noel paid.

639
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:53.960
Because we've gotten to a point in this country, luckily,

640
00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:58.400
thankfully that people are saying, look, take control of who

641
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:02.159
you are and what you're doing, and you can't shirk

642
00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:06.360
the responsibility of this. So back to the setting the scene.

643
00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:10.760
So I'm in LA. The jury comes back. Everybody is stunned,

644
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.559
thrilled that they have given Robert Noel, who wasn't even

645
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:18.920
physically at the scene, charge him with manslaughter convicted, okay,

646
00:36:19.719 --> 00:36:25.119
and convicted Marjorie Noller of second degree murder. She gets

647
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:27.239
a sentence of fifteen to life. He gets a sentence

648
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:31.119
of four years. Everybody is elated that this could happen,

649
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.760
that a jury in Los Angeles could see through this

650
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:39.079
to set this record precedent setting verdict. Okay. We go

651
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.880
up to San Francisco a month later for the sentencing,

652
00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:45.000
which is a formality typically that's what it is. The

653
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.599
judge now is going to read the sentence that the

654
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.880
jury gave and George Warren comes out and he's looking

655
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.920
a little sheepish, and everybody's kind of like, there's a

656
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.800
lot of media, there's place is packed. He saits down.

657
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.159
He quietly says, I have been giving this a lot

658
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:08.320
of thought, and I understand the jury's verdict, and but

659
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:12.480
I just don't see how Marjorie Oler could have known

660
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:16.559
that her dog would kill someone. So I am going

661
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:23.320
to reduce the verdict or the conviction to manslaughter. I'm

662
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:24.280
just like everybody.

663
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.400
And there was like, okay, do we have juries in America?

664
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.159
Like didn't I just sit through a whole trial for

665
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:34.159
months with a twelve person jury and four other people

666
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.480
torture the alternates that never even got the desire to

667
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:38.679
have to sit through all this, And now you're going

668
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:43.199
to tell them that what you the judge decided you

669
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:44.719
didn't really it wasn't.

670
00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:45.519
Really a second degree.

671
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:49.639
You know, this is now. So she goes away for

672
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.480
four years. Now like her husband, she's in the women's

673
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:54.480
prison out Chilla in California.

674
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:56.719
Years later two, that's the five.

675
00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:59.039
I was covering the Michael Jackson trial, and so was

676
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:03.199
Jim Hammer, prosecutor from the Dog one case, and he

677
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:06.960
comes running over to me, what there's news because we

678
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.159
didn't have ourselves because in the Micheal court room you

679
00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:11.519
couldn't be on your everything.

680
00:38:11.559 --> 00:38:12.880
They took all your stuff away from you.

681
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:17.519
It was craziness. Anyway, they made Judge Warren, the Higher

682
00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:20.840
Court decided no, no, no, no, you have made a

683
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:21.400
mistake here.

684
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.239
You need to reconsider this case.

685
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:29.280
They had Judge Warren really basically forced him to reinstate

686
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:31.039
the second degree muror conviction.

687
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:34.039
And Margie Muller, who was now living with her parents.

688
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:38.800
In Florida being taken care of, was just clawed right

689
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.239
back to California. And as you said, she is still

690
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.400
trying to get out, and why don't they let her out?

691
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.119
Okay, it's now what twenty five years later?

692
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:50.519
You know why?

693
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:53.079
Well it was twenty two and so twenty four years later.

694
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:59.679
Why because she still has Aaron Brotherhood associates. That makes

695
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:04.960
her a threat to anybody around her and to society

696
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.840
at large, and people know it. And she ain't never

697
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:12.679
getting out, sorry, lady, Yeah, she's never getting out. And

698
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.400
that's that's clear that she's never getting out. I think

699
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:18.199
this was like her third appeal. I think, oh yeah,

700
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:22.760
read correctly. Do you think what would have prevented this

701
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:23.760
in a perfect world?

702
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:28.239
You know, honestly, I don't know that there could have

703
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.199
been anything to prevent this. A couple of weeks prior

704
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:35.440
to the lethal attack being the larger dog bit Diane

705
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.639
Wibble on the risk it just so happened.

706
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.079
She called her girlfriend. She was also shook up. I'd

707
00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:40.679
be sure up too.

708
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.360
If you have one hundred and forty pounds dog that

709
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.360
bites you, I mean, that's all any dog bite.

710
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:47.119
So her girlfriend comes.

711
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.360
Home and because we're being bit Diane was on the

712
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.800
risk with her. She had a sports spotch on. There

713
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.440
was no breaking of the skin. There was a little

714
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:57.679
bit of a redness there. But Sharon Smith was like,

715
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:03.840
you know, okay, you know, sorry, but there was that warning. Right.

716
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:07.039
It's not up to Diane to do anything to prevent this.

717
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:10.599
It was up to the dog owners to do something

718
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:14.559
to prevent this. Oh absolutely, And so what could have

719
00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:17.440
been done to prevent it is, first of all, obviously

720
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:19.039
don't bring them there in the first place. But if

721
00:40:19.039 --> 00:40:22.480
you're going to do that and you have these dangerous animals,

722
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:25.239
you don't take them around San Francisco and treat them

723
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:26.360
like they're happy puppies.

724
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.079
And that's what they were doing. So these dogs also

725
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:30.760
had a very mixed signals.

726
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:32.559
This is not the first time you've written about this.

727
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:35.719
You originally wrote about this, you called it red zone.

728
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.159
What led you to go back? Why did you change

729
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.639
the name because the term red zone is originally coined

730
00:40:40.639 --> 00:40:44.199
by Caesar Milan, a dog whisperers. What led to the change,

731
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:46.119
what led to you rewriting the whole thing?

732
00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:49.639
So I got the rights back to my book years

733
00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:54.440
ago from HarperCollins, and I just let it be, and

734
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.599
I've gone on with my career. It's been many years

735
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.679
since I've had that. And at some point I realized

736
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.719
people do not know this story, and they don't know

737
00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.639
it because the title was wrong and the cover doesn't

738
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:10.519
let you understand what this thing is about. It's not

739
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:14.400
about dogs that are dog moulling. It's about the Aryan Brotherhood.

740
00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:20.400
It's about the insanity of this whole scenario that boiled

741
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:27.199
up and came together and landed Diane Whipple. Yet she

742
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.559
is the like I say, thotted lamb here, and if

743
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.079
it weren't hurt, it would have been someone else that

744
00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:35.519
was going to happen in this scenario.

745
00:41:36.239 --> 00:41:39.599
And I realized that people need to hear this.

746
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:41.639
And part of it is because, as I'm saying about

747
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.880
with children in school shootings, people need to start to understand, hey,

748
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:47.400
you're going to be responsible.

749
00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:50.960
You're not just gonna walk away. You created it, You're

750
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.000
going to pay for them. And also as a writer.

751
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:55.960
In my last book, Levi's Eyes that I wrote, I

752
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.159
felt was so much better in my ability to write

753
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:01.079
what I wanted to take some of the rabbit holes

754
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:03.360
away if you read it. Also, just on a little

755
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.840
aside for anybody who wants to be a writer. I

756
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:08.840
thought I didn't mention it per se in the book.

757
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.719
I don't think, but if anybody ever wanted to see

758
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.360
how do you take a book and nake it into

759
00:42:14.440 --> 00:42:19.400
something half the size and more powerful that book lives

760
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:20.239
Red Zone lives.

761
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.320
I can't. I can't distract, I can't destroy it.

762
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:25.199
I can't take it away. It's out there.

763
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:29.440
But dog War is the story without.

764
00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:32.119
All the rabbit holes, these crazy cases that these lawyers

765
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.239
went down with other inmates, and all the Area Brotherhood stuff.

766
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:37.639
There was a lot that went on a lot with

767
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:38.599
the Arian Brotherhood.

768
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:42.840
But I felt like it detracted from Diane and the

769
00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:46.840
mauling and the scenario in San Francisco. So I went

770
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:48.559
in to do that, And once I did that, don't

771
00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:50.679
ever ask a writer to go in and look at

772
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:55.920
the work again, because that was a big mistake. Because

773
00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:57.199
I thought I was going to go in and just

774
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:59.119
pull a few little pieces out and it'd be nice

775
00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:03.039
and easy. It took me a full year to write

776
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:06.920
this book, and basically, other than the first chapter, the

777
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:10.920
entire things were written. Yeah, it was a fool rewrite,

778
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.159
so but I mean, I'm very glad that I did

779
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.400
that because the other thing, too, is our world has

780
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.519
changed so much. People don't have patience to read long chapters.

781
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.960
It's sad, but that's kind of how it is. I've

782
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.280
always written shorter chapters, but now I've gotten to a

783
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:25.000
place where, Okay, it's going to be a three page chapter,

784
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:29.000
one page chapter, four page chef because people want We

785
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.559
all want quick and easy. It's just weir condition to

786
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:31.920
that now.

787
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:35.679
Yeah, in the age of like short form content, it's in.

788
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.880
The age of if it's not thirty seconds, it can't

789
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:44.119
go on TikTok. Yeah. I like my long books too,

790
00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:46.199
And I look, I shortened the book more than I

791
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:48.840
thought of have shortened it, honestly.

792
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:52.760
But I feel like I have the right essence in

793
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:54.440
this version of the story.

794
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:57.079
Diane is very much the center of the story. So

795
00:43:57.159 --> 00:43:59.599
obviously the the Arian Brotherhood is a huge part of it,

796
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.159
it has to be, but Diane is very much the

797
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:04.199
center of this.

798
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.400
Story, which is the most important thing.

799
00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:11.119
Absolutely, and this book I get by the time you

800
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:14.000
guys are listening to this. The book is available now

801
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:18.760
on Amazon and it's available physical and kindle edition.

802
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.800
Yes okay, and I will do an audio in time.

803
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:28.440
Okay, so audio coming, but kindle edition and physical copy available.

804
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:30.559
The link of course, as always, will be in the

805
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:33.719
source notes below. Of course, also in the source notes

806
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.400
will be the last two times Afredititi joined me. We

807
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.000
covered Levi's eyes ends, we talked about Rod Perrel and

808
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:44.360
Teens that Kill, which is very apropos but as always, Afroditi,

809
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.639
it has been such a pleasure having you on. You

810
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.719
know you're welcome whenever.

811
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:51.920
Well, thank you so much. I have another book that

812
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.960
I'm going to be brewing up, but I'm going to

813
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:55.280
probably release in the fall.

814
00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:57.280
We'll see if I can get that, yes.

815
00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.760
Okay, so you know who knows going to be able

816
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:03.039
to for another we'll definitely.

817
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.559
I love your show. I love that you talk about books.

818
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:09.039
We need people like you.

819
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.800
Oh, we need you, We need you.

820
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.559
We need more fortinies in the world, seriously, because you

821
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:18.599
know AI is eating up our brains.

822
00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:23.280
But as always, thank you so much for listening, and

823
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:25.519
I hope you have a wonderful week and I will

824
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:28.079
see you guys in the next chapter of the Book

825
00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:33.639
of the Dead. Bye guys. Another page closed. But the

826
00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:38.039
story isn't over for the families left behind. The pain

827
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:41.840
doesn't end when the headline's fade. And for the victims,

828
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.960
we owe them more than silence for our on salt cases.

829
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:49.440
If you have any information, please reach out to local

830
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.679
authorities or visit our show notes for links and resources.

831
00:45:53.880 --> 00:46:00.159
Someone out there knows something, maybe it's you. Thank you

832
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.760
for listening to the Book of the Dead. If this

833
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:05.760
story moved or spoke to you in some way, talk

834
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:12.199
about it, share it, keep their names alive. Until next time,

835
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:19.039
I'm Courtney Liso. Stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant,

836
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:23.079
and remember the dead may be gone, but their stories

837
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:24.519
will not be forgotten.