Chapter 78: Teens That Kill & Rod Ferrell Revisited w/ Aphrodite Jones

0:00 Hi guys. I'm Courtney and I'm Lisa, and welcome to the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. Brought to you by Dark Cast Network Indie Podcasts with a Twist. Hello, is this thing on? Okay? Good? I am sorry to interrupt your listening pleasure, but my name is Tiffany and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, True Crime Connections. It's an advocacy podcast that talks real survivors about real shit. This is the place you want to be if you've been in a toxic relationship or anything tragic has happened to you and you're looking to find your strength and healing. No two episodes are alife, but they all give you useful tools that you can take with you. So make sure to find me on your favorite podcast platform, or you can go to Truecrimeconnections dot com and come join the whole building community.

1:15 See you there. Hello, Hello, Welcome to the next chapter in the Book of the Dead. With me today, I have an absolute powerhouse in the true crime community. She knows the true crime world first hand and has wrote numerous books on different true crime subjects. So today with me, I have Aphredite Jones to talk about her book The Embrace, a true vampire story, and this is a case that you guys might be familiar with, might not be familiar with. I have covered it, but it is the Rod Farrell case. And Aphrodite is going to take us through this story in the way that only she can do. So, Aphrodite, thank you for joining me today. Thank you for having me. It's an honor. I appreciate it very much. So let's get into it. Let's jump right in.

2:08 What is it about this case that drew you in? You know, why did you decide to write about it? You know? Take me through everything. Sure, So, back in time when I wrote this story in the mid nineties, it really wasn't the kind of crime that we see teens committing today. In fact, it was an anomaly back then. We didn't really see so much of teens killing adults or each other. It was to me a signal to the world that we really need to watch over our teenagers and pay attention to what they're doing in their back rooms. Because in this case, Heather Wendorf was the main character in the book, was talking with Rog Ferrell, who at that time was lived in Kentucky. But he also spent part time with his father in Florida, where Heather lived, and so the two of them got together. But for the most part they were talking on the phone, and they would talk throughout the night and day and night whenever she had the opportunity, and in essence, rod Ferrell convinced her that he was a vampire and he could tak time travel, and he could make people immortal, he could embrace them, give the embrace to turn them into

3:40 his minion, which of course is crazy. But again this is a separate story of teens mixing reality was fantasy, and again we are only seeing a lot of that now. We did not see that in the past. The most important thing that I want to talk about is why the teenagers today, Why is there so much violence? I mean, back in time, the Columbine shooting had not yet happened, and we start to see, you know, school shootings and teenagers killing each other more and more. It's almost become pasta It's hard for me to believe that. What do you think it's definitely true. And that's something that I remember talking about when I originally was going through this case. Was that back in even you know, the nineties, when this happened, you didn't read so much about kids killing kids or kids killing adults. It wasn't really a thing until you know, obviously this is the most publicized case or one of the most publicized cases of kids killing or teenagers killing. And then now, I mean, you can rarely go a week without hearing about a teenager that has committed some horrific crime, and there

5:13 is something to be said about, like what is influencing them. You know, you have the nature of pers nurture, but you know, people want to there've been that. You know, it's the age old argument of video games cause violence and things like that. But it's it's interesting that there are these kids out there that are truly rotten to the core. And Rod was a perfect example of that. It was just there's something to be said within him that was evil and some of these kids now are just as bad, and it's like, I can't wrap my head around it. Oh. And you know, here's the thing. It's not just that they're evil, because you know, we see that and a lot of these school house shootings sort of a mental problem. But also there has been since this crime, this early crime of teen violence, there have been many people who have gone into schools and shot their former classmates or their classmates in a copytat kind of way to what happened in Columbine. And you know, that's what's so disturbing here, Courtney is why and asking the question, trying to answer the question as to why these young kids are so much led astray from reality that they would

6:44 go ahead and murder people, and more than one person in the case of the Embrace, Heather Windorff's parents were murdered. How did she go along with this? What is it about pure pressure or perhaps not even bitter pressure. Perhaps it's bullying, or it's incumbent upon the team to feel like they need to copy someone or show how great they are and get media attention. I mean, it's just really sad that people can't send their kids to school and not have to worry about it. I just do have to worry about it.

7:25 They do have to give that second thought to what is going to happen in my school today? You know, is my child going to be okay? If my teenagers are going to be okay? And on the flip side of this, how is it that the parents don't know that they have a psychologically damaged child. That is my question to you, And that's I think that's something that everyone asks themselves when they hear about these horrific crimes. It's how did the parents not know? And it's true, I've said it myself. How do you? How do you not know? Is it that you are in so much denial that something is wrong with your child that they could potentially have their propensity to do something so violent? It it's part of me?

8:11 Is it? Is it? You know? Like I understand, you know, a parent loves their child no matter what, but there has to be a line drawn. You know, you love your child, but you have to acknowledge if there is violence within them. And the thing is, if you notice, most recently two parents were actually convicted of criminal acts and are being sent to prison for the acts of their child. And that is the first that that's a precedent. But in that case, you have the mom not only give her son a gun, but also bringing him to school, allowing him to be in school, going to the school knowing that he's drawing pictures of guns, pictures her warped and the mother was told by the school, you need to come get your son he's acting very strangely. He's a problem, and you can't leave him in school right now. We don't know what's happening. He's, you know, having trouble psychologically, and it's been noticed by teachers and students, and that mother refused to take him home that day. She left him in school that day. Now, did she know her son was going to pull a gun? No, But was she responsible for giving him the gun, for allowing him to stay in school?

9:37 And she was warned that very same day that this is the problems. So it makes sense that she and her husband were convicted criminally. I wonder if other parents will be convicted since that president has been set, because it just seems like some of them know that their kids is into guns, know that their kids has psychological problems. It's been reported before. We've heard that so many times. Why don't parents try to get their kids from help? For me, I think it's a lot of you know, they don't. They don't want to be acknowledge there's a problem. I don't know if it's they don't want it to reflect negatively on themselves. But you're absolutely right that you know she in that case, she essentially enables the incident to happen. She literally put the gun in her child's hands. She ignored the warning signs and for what for someone to get hurt? And she, rightfully so was convicted of criminal charges in relation to that. So is her husband. And they're absolutely parents out there that have ignored the warning signs or dismissed the warning signs and allowed things to happen, and they should have been held just as accountable as their children. Yes, So the flip side of this is that in this story you embraced. It wasn't other teens that got killed, but it

11:09 was one guy, Rod Ferrell, who had convinced his minions as followers, if you will to do blood lettings, to do the embrace, to become a halfling first and eventually a vampire with an immortal life. And the result of this was that Heather Wendorf allowed Rod Ferrell to come and get her, said that she would like her parents dead, which many teenagers ages do and don't mean it. And the day she was quote embraced by Rod Ferrell, she went off with him and the group of teenagers he brought with him who also wanted to become vampires and they headed to New Orleans, where you know, Vampire or Central with Anne Wright writing these books. Her parents did not know that Heather was in contact with this psychotic person, that Heather's friend had given this person a map of how to get to the Windorf house and where the parents would be. Now, that is something so premeditated and so bizarre.

12:30 What is it in her parents that didn't notice any change in Heather. Heather had gone from being, you know, a good student to suddenly she's dye in her hair, she's you know, acting weird. She's not the same kids she was. She's almost a god. And you know, I get it that teenagers want to forge their own way and come up with new plans. But in this case, she literally believed that Rod Ferrell could help her become immortal. One part of her belief that the other side of her was curious and wanting to experience whatever it was that he could offer in terms of immortality. And how weird is it that she would think this, like what planet are these kids on? That was what was always interesting to me about that case, especially because Heather, just based on you know, all the research I did, was by all accounts, like a good girl.

13:35 She was a good student, you know, her sister was a cheerleader. It was a great family. They went on all these trips together. And then you have this guy, you have Rod, come in and flip everything on its head, and her whole personality changes. She's so enamored by him. And I couldn't understand that a girl as you know, intelligent as she was, and I mean, like just she was BookSmart. There had to have been a part of her the whole time that when I know you're you're full of it. There's nothing that you're saying that is rooted in reality.

14:16 And she went along with it anyway, Like was it just the allure of what he was telling her, this fantasy world that he created, that had such this this stronghold on her. I think that's part of it, Cordiny. I think there's also a part of teenagers who want to believe that they can be immortal. You know, of course, when you're a teenager, the world is yours, but on top of it, to think that g immortality can be offered to me, or in essence, I can run off with these people and have a different life. I can get away from my parents. Who are you know somewhat strict influencing or trying to to fear with what it is she wanted to become. So they did in this case, paid some attention to the change in her, but not enough to really.

15:11 I don't know that they could have known that Heather was dealing with a psychotic person, especially since it was on the phone. I don't know they could have known this. They would know their daughter was changing, but in this story, Heather didn't become a total goth. Heather was dealing with someone that lived out of state. They couldn't know that. And ultimately what happened is Rod Ferrell and his buddy went into her house. His other friends lord Heather out of the house. First they cut the phone lines. This was back before there were cell phones. They went into the house and on the way in Rod picked up a tire iron in the garage and first beat to death heather father, who was laying on the couch watching TV, minding his own business. And then they went to the mother. Rob Ferrell caught the mother as she was coming out of the shower, and it just so happened that he got her in the kitchen. It was at a ranch house and she threw a cup of hot coffee at him. That was the only defense she could make, and he killed her, bludgeoned her. The weird part about this story the weirdest part. And he, by the way, carved a v into her father bizar into his chest. Heather Wendorf went off with Rod

16:45 Ferrell and this group of other teens headed to New Orleans for this quote New Life, Different life. She allowed the blood letting to occur, and while she was in the car escaping from her house, it was the fact that Rob Ferrell was driving her parents suv that she was like, what is happening? How do you have my parents' car? Why is this? And Rod told her I killed your parents. He wanted them dead, and I killed your parents. Now he has it in the backseat of the car, and he picks up a strand of pearls that belonged to her mother to prove to her. As he's holding them up. He's in the front seat, she's in the back. In the rear view mirror, she can see these are my mom's pearls. And now she knows that Rod is a murderer. She sees that there's blood on him. She's aware completely that this actually happened, And yet in her fantasy world, she wants to believe it didn't happen.

17:49 She wants to believe, no, this was just him talking. He stole my parents' car, he stole jewelry. This couldn't have happened. So it's not as though she really wanted her parents dead, nor did she believe that Rob was a psychopath. Yet how could she not believe that when he's convincing her trying, and has convinced others that he can actually project himself, that he could go back in time and be somebody who's from a thousand years ago? Or you know, what is it in her that not only entertain this, but actually lowered him to where she lived and was happy to have him come there, to bring her to a cemetery where he did this embrace.

18:48 But what in her change? And the answer I have to this is, like you say, she was going on a wrong path. Her parents didn't realize that. They looked at as, oh, this is teen's acting up. She wants to spread her wings. This is just teenage rebellion. This is what teens do. And they both went up legend to death. Now Heather goes into the already in the car and they're headed to nor Orleans, but they make a number of stops along the way. Why doesn't she find a way to call somebody? Why doesn't she find a way to report this?

19:29 And that's a big question the story because, as it turns out, when they were stopped and it was in that rouge, one of the teams had called the mothers and was scared. Now, why didn't Heather call? Well, Heather didn't call anyone, and that led police to believe that she was involved in this murder, that she really did want her parents dead, that it was her fault. And the weird part was when they were rotten to the police station and were questioned, Heather Wendorf acted nonchalantly. She was blase about the whole affair, which made law enforcement think all the more she was part of it, that she was a part of this group of teens who, in particularly with Rod Ferrell, actually killed her parents. Later, when she was questioned by a grand jury, it wasn't until then when the grand jury asked her questions back and forth. The DA was listening, you know, questioning her in every possible way that the grand jury said, you know, what she's innotant. She didn't know this was going to happen.

20:47 She didn't know that her parents would actually be killed. And again, this is where the cross between reality and fantasy comes to roost. And I wonder how many other teens that are out there who, as you say, video games and the fantasy of that utilize that for committing violent acts murder because there's somehow caught up in a fantasy world, you know what I'm saying, Yeah, I think I think that's that is what what happened with Heather's that she was so caught up in this fantasy world, you know, kind of I guess maybe questioning like how far could this idea go, This you know, idea of running away, this idea of vampires all that, how could how far could it go? And her her parents ended up being a casualty of this idea. And I wonder if she kind of convinced herself that, you know, her parents were fine and this, this fantasy world was outside of that about side of what had happened to her parents, kind of living in another world in her mind while this is happening. And with you know, kids today, I think that for some of them, that is something that probably happens. They get so caught up in this idea of being greater than

22:21 what they are and being on this different level than you know, quote unquote regular people. There was a case in Russia of two teenagers that went on a rampage because they believed that they were higher beings and they killed they killed I think twelve people, and it was all because of this idea that was in their brains that they were better than that they were higher beings, that they were the equivalent to gods. And I think that it was an their case where fantasy and reality that line was completely blurred. Another issue that I want to talk about with teens who go astray and become violent is what's happening right now on the college campuses throughout the country. This idea that supporting what's going and what went on with a terrorist organization cutting off people's heads, babies heads, showing it on video for all the world to see on the internet, being proud of killing three thousand people, three thousand Israelites, And how it is that currently so many students have ignored the fact that the terrorism came from you know, the murders came from a terrorist organization, And how can

23:56 it be that many of these students say, I am mos, I sympathize as a hams Hamas is not a terrorist organization, and go after the Israelites, go after Jewish students violently all throughout the country. I feel that this is another sense of a fantasy and a mix up between reality. When a country has been invaded, has been terrorized, like we were in nine to eleven when thousands of people were killed because of it, how is it that the people who are in colleges don't see it. Why is it that there's this strange element of you know, some students raised the flag of another country and took down the American flag, burned American flags, you know, feel that America is responsible for this. We have nothing to do with the war there between Israel and Gaza. We are doing that, We're not killing anyone.

25:07 What is happening with these students, How do they think that they're actually going to influence what net Nyanju does, what Israel is doing to fight back. Of course, they are innocent people who are casualties. Of course, they're hard horrors in Yasah. You know, it amazes me that these many young people want to be in denial, want to be in denial of nine to eleven. Some of them want to be in denial about what America has to do with these murders. And again, I think it is a convergence of reality and fantasy. I do think that many of them don't even understand or know whether or not the original attack was real. Some of them deny it. How does this happen in our country? How have we gotten to this point from you know, almost thirty years ago, where being violence, violence on campuses, violence in high school's unheard of? And how far does this go when we look at what's going on today? Absolutely, and I think with the age of the Internet and the age of technology, it's gotten worse and it has it's created a lot of problems. It's not to say we struggle back to the stone ages, but I think that there is misinformation and there's a lack of education around teaching our children's, our children how to be safe and to recognize that there is false information, and there is information

26:42 that could be very alluring and very captivating, and it may not be the right kind of information, It may not be totally true. It may be a warped truth. And I think there are a lot of kids that are into that, and they are taking what they're reading online and what they're seeing online and what they're consuming in the media, and it's being warped as it's being fed to them. And that is I fully believe is contributing to some of the violence because these kids, you know, being impressionable, are hearing these things and they're agreeing with it because they have a lack of understanding and they're taking that idea and they're allowing it to kind of mold them and their personalities. And here you have the situation where not one are they protesting, but they're literally going after Jewish students, harming Jewish students, you know, scaring Jewish students who now are afraid to go to their campuses and finish out their college education. Graduations are being canceled, as you may know, and you know there have been there recently in Columbia University, these students who have literally broken into one of the buildings, a historical landmark that they just are destroying. It's gone beyond just violence. How does this This is where coming

28:18 back to the embrace and what Heather Wendorf was involved with, perhaps with misinformation or you know, wanting to join a crowd. You wonder of peers, how many of these students who are or people who are protesting on all these college campuses and creating violence, how many of them are going along with something as Heather Wendorf did, not even knowing what the facts are not bothering, you know, being pamphlet missionaries who again would rather see Israelize guills rathericy Israelize be the ones who they look at as the enemy, they look at as a country that should not be retaliating against this active terror. It's just so wild that we have gone from no real teen violence thirty years ago, to Columbine to you know, Virginia Tech, to you know, the mass shooting in a movie theater, to you know, then now, as you say, another shooting on campus or even schools, high schools, elementary schools that the parents aren't aware of, that they just allow, or that somehow or another they don't check on their kids. They don't know what's going on, and they're in their world. And I think it's because, as you say,

29:52 it's now the Internet, it's easy for them to find people who agree with them, and group formations are now founded by people who are of the same mindset on the internet. It's a real problem. It's a real problem. It goes beyond just one story or numerous stories that continue to evolve with copycat teenagers. We now have, I want to say, a twisted world, and it has to do with young people who again are collapsing reality with some kind of I don't know, sense of being warriors, which is a fantasy. They are not warriors, you know what I'm saying. No, absolutely I do. And I think part of it is that, you know, they do. They think they're warriors, they think they're above everyone else, and a lot of them do not fear authority in any way at all.

30:55 I worked in a store for a while and I saw countless teenagers, you know, anywhere from thirteen to sixteen, absolutely run rampant and be like violence. I will never forget a bunch of kids were fooling around. They broke a woman's foot because they got so crazy, and the police were called, and they're talking back to the police, and they're talking back to security and they're talking. They have zero fear of authority. And even when I was younger, that wasn't a thing. You know, you respected authority, You feared authority. You know, if I was doing something wrong, you know, I never in my life had been in trouble with the police.

31:41 But if I thought I was doing something wrong, you know, I stopped. You know, these kids don't, They don't fear authority. They have this superiority complex, and that's what's getting a lot of these kids into the trouble that they're getting in because there's no limit to what they think they can do, and they push those boundaries constantly to the point where people do get hurt and people lose their lives. Is it every kid that is a you know, a little annoying or a little aggressive or wants to cause trouble in public. No, but there are those that are like that. And you know how many kids are going to grow up to be killers because they don't have that respect for authority, of respect for another human's life, because they think they're better than everyone else. So they've lost their moral compass. And this is this is you know exactly the story that I wrote about in The Embrace. Heather lost her moral you know compus. She ignored whatever warning signs there were about Rod wanting to come to her house and acting out. What with a teenage wish that, Oh, I wish my parents were dead.

32:59 I don't know how many teenagers have thought this. I think at some point kids think this, But she verbalized it and rot Darrel acted on it, and then after it happened, she didn't want to believe it. So she's again in a fantasy world. When she finds out that she is going to be possibly held responsible for this, she knows she can walk her way out of it, and she did. However, at that time she was basically run out of town on a rail. Nobody in her family, in the Wendor family felt that she wasn't responsible. People in the town have used this where she was from, didn't believe her, felt that she was responsible.

33:46 She did not do any media interviews. She was hiding, and you know, when people started seeing the footage of her after the arrest acting cavalier, you got to wonder, since she was aware now that her parents were actually dead, what goes through her mind and why is it that back in time this happened and again now we have many more students teenagers who have absolutely no problem with being violent with crashing windows, with feeling with you know, parming police, as you say, the authority that we had back in time, that we feared and needed. You need authority, You need police because they can save you from a dangerous situation, whether it's domestic violence, whether it's street violence. And yet now police are being shot, police are being banged over the head, you know, they're being whatever, bricks are torn of them. Where do we go from here? How do we land in this pass bouteille? It's it's mind boggling to me because it really that's it's true.

35:04 It's where where can we go from here? What is the solution to rectify what has been done? And I think part of it is that many of these students are under a spell that they really have been turned around, going in the wrong direction like Heather Wendorf did, and now it's so prevalent, and they feel there's no consequences because in essence, they have not been consequences. In fact, some of them Brad, what will happen if you get arrested in New York in any event? At n YU. One of my alma maters at Columbia is somebody who's asked one of these you know, protesters, was asked, well, what happens if you're arrested, and the protester's answer was go to jail for overnight and then let me out. And that is happening. So there are no consequences there. I mean, other Wendors experienced consequences. Her parents were killed, she was run out of town, she could not have the life she had had anymore. But people today, young people who are are rebelling and creating these acts of violence, there isn't the kind of consequence that we saw even fifteen years ago with Columbine, even twenty five years ago that was or in many of these other cases.

36:32 The consequences today don't match the crime, absolutely not. They not even close. And that's something that's always driven me crazy is you look at people that have been convicted of horrific crimes, and you know, some of them get some of them get life maybe, and then others, you have, they got a couple of years. Or there was there was someone who who murdered two teenagers, the mother of one of the teenagers and mutilated the other mother. She survived and he got ten years. So yeah, I mean, what kind of sentence is that and with a good time. They only have to serve half the time. We are at a point of anarchy, and the anarchy comes from these young people. We don't see thirty year olds forty year olds doing these things. We see people of the newer, older generations saying we need the police. We can't you know, function as a society without the police. And yet police are regarded by the young people as enemies.

37:54 It's just snowballs, Courtney. It has snowball to a place where I don't know that we can control this anymore. How would we turn it around? Honestly that it's a question that I genuinely could not tell you the answer because it is out of control. It is, it's out of control. You're right, it's absolute anarchy. And in the case of you know, Rod Ferrell, you know he got the consequences that match the crime. You know, there was a fear of police. There is a feel of fear of authority, and nowadays there isn't that it doesn't exist. And you know, you you know, any kid or teenager can look up a crime online and see that this person only got ten years, or this person only got five years, or they got they got pleated down to lesser charges, and so it makes it seem as if horrific crimes are quote unquote not a big deal. So in the case of Brod Ferrold, he was after a trial, he was sentenced by a jury to death, and later that was commuted by a governor of Florida to life without parole. And now we're in a place where Brod ferrel is actually filing appealed to get out. So even though he murdered Heather's parents in the most violent way, he thinks it's okay now.

39:30 I mean, with all this going on the art in the world, maybe he'll get an appeal, maybe he'll get out. And again, I just I can't imagine that somebody would go in a house, premeditate this and wind up murdering, slaughtering Heather's parents and think that it's all okay now I could get out. At the same time, I interviewed Rod while he was in jail in a holding cell during the time of his trials, and Rod told me that he was not only immortal, but he identified with Isis and other gods and figures from mythology and was talking to me about this as if it was real like he's sitting behind bars, he's being tried and the death penalties on the table, and he's still in this fantasy world. It was absolutely bizarre at that time. Now we see this on a regular basis, and these young people feel there are no consequences. They can get away with whatever they want to get away with. They can smash and brab, they can steal without being punished if they steal under ten thousand dollars worth of goods.

40:55 I don't know. I just wonder how this is going to get turned around. How do we turn the clock back in time? How do we get back to before columnline? Is it possible? I think it starts with parents being mindful of what's going on with their children. And I don't necessarily mean being like a helicopter parent, because you know, you can't suffocate your kids, but being mindful. You know, what are they doing on the internet? Are they spending all hours of the night on the computer? Okay? But why? What? What is so captivating on the computer that they're finding? You know, just have that honest conversation. What are you doing in the computer? What kind of websites do you on? You know, do some research find out what's going on. If your kid has gone from bubbly and outspoken with this big personality to more sullen and withdraw it, you know what is going on. There is no shame in therapy talk to have them talk to a therapist, you know, get that education, find out what is going on, because nothing is going to get close to beginning to start getting better if parents don't know what's going on with their kids, and if kids don't start developing that healthy fear and respect of authority, right, and I think it does start at home, or it certainly did back you know in years past. When I say start at home, they're not being

42:30 monitored. You're right not to be helicopter parents. But what about going on Facebook and seeing who they're involved with what they're posting. Many of them posts manifest those they're proud of it, they want to kill. What's wrong with looking at what your kid is actually saying. And if the kid is planning to murder, or is obsessed with homicide, or is obsessed with getting even with people, bring them to a counselor bring them to somebody who can keep them it's in reality and get them out of the idea that being a murderer is cool. You know this idea that oh, if I, you know, like Rod Ferrell, wants to be immortal if I do this. Finbald and Harris became immortal in what they did. So it's in the media, it's talked about, they're talked about. One of the things the media has done, which is positive, is that we don't hear about the killer as much as that used to be. They're not getting the attentions that they think they're going to get by a schoolhouse shooting. The media has wived up to this and has no longer given them the status, if you will, of being fifteen minutes the same or more than fifteen minutes the same, of being you know, analyzed and almost cajoled by the media back in time. I

44:04 think that's one good thing. But I mean, in a case of Pether lendarf I will tell you this, even though she was not convicted of murder, she was not tried for the murder of her parents. Her sister got upon to stand and said, Heather did make that statement that she wanted her parents killed. That was something that was mind blowing. And beyond that, after this was all over, after I had my book out, which Heather, you know, worked with me quite a bit after all of that. When the book was out, I called her. She was now in college in a different state, and she was talking about her new life and everything was fine. She seemed to not care at all that her parents were gone.

44:52 In fact, this is the thing she told me, Oh, it's all good. I have a new boyfriend, I have new tat, a new cat. I'm happy. It's good. I said, what's the name of the cat? She said, Lucy, Oh, that's great. You know, I'm glad that you're there. I don't know what else to say to her. You know, she's lost her parents, for God's sake, from the time she was a teen. And you know what she tells me. She says, yeah, Lucy, it stands for Lucifer. Now think about that for a minute, if you can see right now. Oh my god, this is where you know, you have to really think. At the end of the day, the grand jury believed that she had nothing to do with this, that she was innocent, that she was unaware that anything would happen to her parents, and yet she's cavalier after she discovers that her parents are murdered she doesn't do anything about it. After she sees Rod Ferrell's holding up her mother's pearls, she goes along with the program in there, and after Saul said and done, she's naming her cat after Lucifer. She's still into the devil. She's still into state and worship. What the heck was going on back then? That's something that I was grappling with that I couldn't even tell anyone about because the book was done and we didn't have podcasts

46:23 back then. You know, I had already done interviews about the book prior to this, and I couldn't go back and tell anyone this. But it occurred to me that, man, this girl is evil. She was not innocent in all of this, not at all. Looking back, I remember, you know, doing the research covering the story, and I kept going back and forth on whether or not hoether I had any sort of culpability in this, you know, whether or not she was complicit in this in any way. And I really I hadn't an eye hawed, and I really couldn't definitively say whether I believe she had absolutely nothing to do with it or was completely oblivious to what was going to happen and hearing that, Wow, that changes, that absolutely changes everything. Right, it does, and it brings me back to the fact that she got away with it. She had no consequences. And you know, as this has evolved over the years, who else had no consequences? Who else has done things? And as we are today creating senseless acts of violence thinking they can get away with it, and many of them do today. You or not for schoolhouse shootings, But when we look at what's going on right this minute, do you think these students,

47:57 these people who are protesting, feel they're going to hey the price for this? Absolutely not, absolutely not. And that's why they get wilder and wilder. And you gotta wonder what is it in It's not just a lone shooter. It's no longer, Josh, somebody who's a psychopath, somebody who you know, has a need for fame, has a need to be notorious. No, no, no, no, Now we have people that are joined together and literally just committing chaof anarchy. It's something that really has affected me, that really, you know. And I wrote another book called Cruel Sacrifice about four teenage girls who murdered a twelve year old at the time that I wrote that again in the nineties. Prior to writing The Embrace, it was unheard of that teenage girls would kill a twelve year old. It was unheard of. There was nothing like that, and they were an anomaly.

48:58 They were considered, you know, something, people that were psychotic, that were a part of peer pressure. That I mean, those those girls were given The main two girls were given fifty years and sixty years. I thought that in writing these books about teen violence, I thought that it would be a cautionary tale for parents, for anyone who's reading my work. I have a huge following, you know, my readers are very into what I write. It's not just young people. And there are young people in college who read these books and said, you know, basically wow, like how does this happen? Or we can't believe it? And now they have to worry about being in school and thinking that a shooter could come in at any time, and what about all the students. There was one student I talked to about campus shootings who in the interview just said, yeah, we've had them.

50:01 We had one of them on campus. We you know, but we just watched ourselves and were much more cautious, like they're accepting it. It's crazy to me. It's genuinely crazy to me, like how much has changed and how much teenagers and young adults and kids have changed from what they used to be. It's really obviously a serious issue. Has become furious when so many colleges have this going on, when students are joining other agitators and just behaving a world where nobody feels safe anymore, you know, as juveniles, and they feel they'll be tried as juveniles even if they have committed murder.

50:45 They feel it won't be it'll be a short sentence. I just don't know where to go from here. However, I will say that I think people who read my book The Embraced or my other book Crow Sacer, we'll start to look at what their teens are doing much more so. We'll start to monitor, but also cheap scenes in the house. You know, had Heather been monitored more so, she would have been able to get out of the house as a teenager and just take off. I know that that's something I couldn't do back in time, could you. Oh absolutely not, absolutely not.

51:30 And I grew up with someone that could, and I remember she just run away. It was. You know, she was never getting into like real trouble or anything, but she would run away when she would get into it with her mom. And I will never forget my mother. After having listened to my friend's mom cry and be worried sick over her daughter, went up to my friend after she came home and was like, you know what, I have to thank you because you will never do what you've done. She will never act the way that you do. And she was right. I never would. I never went gallivanting off all over town. You know, my mother knew where I was. If I was going to be out late, I called her and said, hey, I'm staying out late.

52:15 You know, this is who I'm with. And kids don't do that now. They go where they want, when they want, and half the time the parents drop them off wherever and it's okay, I'll see you whenever you decide to come home. It's like, no, your sixteen year old should be home by like nine o'clock and safe, not out till two, three, four o'clock in the morning. And again, this is what I say, it does start at home. There is there's a responsibility that should be uncumbent on parents to watch to enforce rules to even if there's not a law that is going after or these young people, there should be parents that, like your mother have warned you, have shown you what it is that can happen if you go down the wrong path. And yet what's happening today has a lot to do with peer pressure. It's like, oh, okay, other people are doing it, I'll join in. It's cool. I'm a cool person now. And I think in the Embrace that is exactly what happened along, you know, with somebody who felt who promised them, you know, immortality, and even though they really didn't believe it, even though you know they question it seriously because this could not happen, they went along with it anyway because they loved being in the fantasy, because they loved the idea

53:50 that they could get away with this. So I hope that people read it. I hope that people read Cross Sacrifice as well and be this cautionary, cautionary tales as something that fourth of them to monitor their kids even if they feel they shouldn't. Or Pamp and I will have the links. They are available on Amazon to Crow Sacrifice and the Embrace. The Embrace I just finished It is not only a phenomenal read, but it is a cautionary tale, and I really encourage parents and teenagers to read it, you know, learn what can happen. You know, obviously that is an extreme worst case scenario, but it's a very real scenario. Yeah, and it's becoming more and more real these days with this violence of people going in and shooting up everybody in Parkland, you know, and the parents now not being able to do anything about it after the fact. The punishment does not fit the crime, which also needs to change exactly. And so these are the things. When I wrote these books back almost thirty years ago, I truly thought parents would realize and look at these cautionary tales. But instead, parents who have a child that's off, they don't look at it, they don't want to see it, and it's too late when they've committed these acts of violence. So

55:21 I think that's really what I wanted to stay with you today, Courtney. That's really the message, and I hope people listen to that message, and parents, you know, listen to the fact that you can't be afraid to monitor your children and be aware of what they're doing. You can't be afraid to be the parents. You know, it's not if there's something going on with your child, it's not necessarily a reflection of you, And you can't be afraid to think that it's a reflection of you and your parenting style. It just means that there's something going on, and it very well could be an outside force that has nothing to do with you. So you need to be aware of what is going on with your children exactly. And I hope as they say that this message, which I thought would get to people back in time and these things would stop and people could see what happened with teenagers have done. I thought that that would be something that would change the minds of parents, would get parents to be more involved with their kids, understand that they have to be if they can't just let their kids run wild.

56:29 And instead we have this chaos now, and I think parents need to turn it around. I think that's the only way this is going to turn around. That's it. I agree, I absolutely agree there needs to be a change. As I said, I will have the links to both books down below. You can get them on Amazon. And thank you Afred Id for joining me today having this really powerful conversation that I do think a lot of people need to hear. It's a tough conversation and people need to be open to it. Parents need to really listen to it because there are terrible things going on in the world and it does start at home, so Afred idea.

57:12 I thank you for bringing attention to this well, thank you Courtney for having me on. And I really appreciate the opportunity to try to influence parents, adults, to get them not to be afraid of their kids and what they're doing. As you say, that's the way this has to happen. That's the issue, and I appreciate you having me on today, court Me. I really do. It's an honor as always. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening and I will see you in the next chapter of the Book of the Dead. Bye, guys much for listening to this chapter of the Book of the Dead, and don't forget that you can always connect with us on Instagram, you can connect with us on Twitter, and you can absolutely connect with us on Patreon. We all so have a merch store as well that we have frequent discount codes coming out for so that you guys can get March hand drawn by myself at a better cost. We hope you have a lovely rest of your week and just remember, please be kind and don't forget to always stay safe, stay curious, and stay vigilant.

58:22 Bye guys, Bye,